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Old 03-04-2013, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: Leader Lengths

Hey - I'm such a fast learner that I've filtered through all the works of David Hughes, Lefty, Nemes, Rosenbauer, etc. and come to the conclusion that knotted tapered leaders collect bits of algae and debris and snag on stuff in the water.

Rosenbauer recommends the untucked clinch knot and triple surgeons as the only knots you need -- I find untucked clinch knots to really suck and the triple surgeons is "okay", but not always ideal.

I love Lefty, but totally disagree with his explanations for tailing loops. I think "sexy loops" nailed it much better.

Hughes is great - but I don't always tie soft hackles by the stem....

------so experiment!

I'll really lazy and all about the exclusion of all that is totally unnecessary .

Also, define a "true" fly fisherman for me Rip -- is that an attempt to discredit me based upon "truth"?

Oh, and "centuries of knowledge" sounds interesting and powerful when put into print, but you and I know it often means nothing. Weren't cat gut leaders and bamboo rods the "end all" at some point? Aren't fast action rods the best rods according to the experts now?? You see where I'm going?

This is mostly 1/3 serious though......but for the naysayers -- just try it!

Oh, and anyone who wants to try one of my leaders can just PM me and I'll give you my formula for it
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Old 03-04-2013, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: Leader Lengths

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightline View Post
You don't have to use that "leather thingy" to straighten a leader. Just pulling it tight with your hands/arms usually works. Stretch it a little. If that doesn't quite do it, pull it slowly between your thumb and index finger a time or two. Works just as good as a leather thingy. Takes about 15 seconds to straighten a 12-foot leader. Just don't pull too fast and burn yourself.
I have used the "leather thingy" and sometimes find it useful. I always used factory tapered leaders and just replace or extend the tippet when necessary. I can't be bothered buying 8 to 10 spools of leader materials for a hand tied leader to save a few bucks. IMHO, tying your own leaders is like tying your own flies. It's something you will eventually want to try if you get deep into this sport. Hey maybe I'll try building my own rod at some point. That must be gratifying to catch a fish on your own rod.
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Old 03-04-2013, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: Leader Lengths

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbineblade View Post
Hey - I'm such a fast learner that I've filtered through all the works of David Hughes, Lefty, Nemes, Rosenbauer, etc. and come to the conclusion that knotted tapered leaders collect bits of algae and debris and snag on stuff in the water.

Rosenbauer recommends the untucked clinch knot and triple surgeons as the only knots you need -- I find untucked clinch knots to really suck and the triple surgeons is "okay", but not always ideal.

I love Lefty, but totally disagree with his explanations for tailing loops. I think "sexy loops" nailed it much better.

Hughes is great - but I don't always tie soft hackles by the stem....

------so experiment!

I'll really lazy and all about the exclusion of all that is totally unnecessary .

Also, define a "true" fly fisherman for me Rip -- is that an attempt to discredit me based upon "truth"?

Oh, and "centuries of knowledge" sounds interesting and powerful when put into print, but you and I know it often means nothing. Weren't cat gut leaders and bamboo rods the "end all" at some point? Aren't fast action rods the best rods according to the experts now?? You see where I'm going?

This is mostly 1/3 serious though......but for the naysayers -- just try it!

Oh, and anyone who wants to try one of my leaders can just PM me and I'll give you my formula for it
Seriously dude. this is laughable'
Don't embarrassed yourself
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Old 03-04-2013, 05:51 PM
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Default Re: Leader Lengths

Quote:
Originally Posted by troutnut4 View Post
I have used the "leather thingy" and sometimes find it useful. I always used factory tapered leaders and just replace or extend the tippet when necessary. I can't be bothered buying 8 to 10 spools of leader materials for a hand tied leader to save a few bucks. IMHO, tying your own leaders is like tying your own flies. It's something you will eventually want to try if you get deep into this sport. Hey maybe I'll try building my own rod at some point. That must be gratifying to catch a fish on your own rod.
Fortunately, I have plenty of half use spools from my conventional fishing line that would serve me for a long time.
I might be interested to tie my own flies, but not until I get better in using them first. Building a rod? Nah? what for if we have the like of Orvis, Sage or Redington.

by the way, do I need to wet the "leather thingy" before I use it?
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:06 PM
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Default Re: Leader Lengths

Quote:
Originally Posted by runningfish View Post
Fortunately, I have plenty of half use spools from my conventional fishing line that would serve me for a long time.
I might be interested to tie my own flies, but not until I get better in using them first. Building a rod? Nah? what for if we have the like of Orvis, Sage or Redington.

by the way, do I need to wet the "leather thingy" before I use it?
runningfish, we have to be careful with our comments here, this post might turn into another "Abel Nippers" thread. I think we are all suffering from cabin fever. Come on April. (our season opens in a few weeks).
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Leader Lengths

Rip - sorry, not biting . I like you and you're very helpful to everyone.

OP - I advise you just to try a lot of leaders and see what happens. That's what I did. If you tie a leader of 9' and find that it turns over too slowly, don't be afraid to cut off a foot or so, or tie on a heavier tippet, etc. Leaders are cheap and you'll eventually figure out what leader works best for your flies and casting style.

If your leader comes back with a lot of wind knots, work on shorter distance casting and eliminating slack .

Last quickie -- if you're like me, you might like to practice casting and go for longer distances while fishing. A level leader will very quickly show you any wind knots and can be a pretty effective tool. A tapered leader will NOT mask any problems in your casting.
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: Leader Lengths

Well I’m not going to post any authors from my book collection and I find a couple of items in your post to be quite odd, “A tapered leader will NOT mask any problems in your casting” that’s true, it will show the caster how well they are doing or not, “If your leader comes back with a lot of wind knots, work on shorter distance casting and eliminating slack” your kidding with that comment aren’t you, and what slack are you eliminating in your cast?

Rick
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: Leader Lengths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rip Tide View Post
Seriously ?
It's your opinion that your "months" of fly fishing experience trumps centuries of collected knowledge from the hundreds of thousands of true fly fishermen that went before you ? Unbelievable.
Hey now, before you go jumping on him, you need to find out if he dropped the required $7000 that makes him an instant expert.

By the way, do you think a tapered leader is needed to chuck a whole handful of lead for a 'Provo bounce'? Or is my spinning reel and a 300 yard level leader OK?
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: Leader Lengths

That's some seriously bad advice, TB. It's comically wrong. Others have given sound advice to the fellow who asked for help. If I wanted to consistently produce tailing loops and hence, wind knots- I'd use a level leader. I must admit to using .020-013- 2 or 3x 10' for leaders for river smallmouth because they will turn Deceivers and buggers and such over. You can get away with a level leader for elliptical and Belgian casts when nymphing, but that's a specialty thing and NOT what the OP asked. Generating speed for longer casts does not make a better caster.
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Leader Lengths

If you think that a level leader alone will lead to wind knots, I'd ask to see an explanation of this.

Tailing loops are caused by the path of the rod tip during casting -- or more specifically, as the rod is unloading on either portion of the cast (tailing the back cast is sometimes a problem for people as well even if they aren't aware of it).

A tapered leader has nothing to do with this. If you cast in such a way that the rod tip takes a "concave" path you'll increase your odds of throw a tailing loop on any leader leader

Generating line speed is not good for casting? Are YOU serious here? Do you cast on mostly small streams?

Look - I'm not an expert and I have no expensive gear -- I use a bass pro rod that hit about 150 bucks. What does that have to do with it? No one is an expert here -- we're all just "random guy on the internet".

I'd offer that this opinion is just "different" advice and not "bad" advice.

And please - the rolling eyes, and please drop the silly, sarcastic comments about how much money I've spent or how few years I've been around.

I actually think you all offer good advice, but your opinions don't necessarily have more value simply because you've held them longer. This would be a really stubborn mindset and probably is a logical fallacy (like the slippery slope).

This isn't a threat to your social order of advice-giving here, so relax!

If you wouldn't consider Ian Colin James an idiot, please extend me the same courtesy. Thanks --

---------- Post added at 09:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 PM ----------

Quote:
By the way, do you think a tapered leader is needed to chuck a whole handful of lead for a 'Provo bounce'? Or is my spinning reel and a 300 yard level leader OK?
I don't know what that is honestly -- so can't really respond.

If this is related to the need for taper to turn over large, heavy flies I'd again disagree. My experience with heavy flies (like clousers) is that the fly turns over the leader.....level works fine.

Plus, I've now started throwing these chunkers with sinking line -- and it either case, if I'm throwing heavy flies I don't see any need for a 'gentle' turnover.

---------- Post added at 09:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 PM ----------

Quote:
work on shorter distance casting and eliminating slack” your kidding with that comment aren’t you, and what slack are you eliminating in your cast?
No, I'm not kidding. One of the ways I tended to throw tailing loops was from allowing slack to collect during the transition between back and forward casting on longer distances (with hauling). This "slack" caused the rod to load unevenly on the beginning of the forward cast, which in turn caused the rod to take a concave tip path and led to tailing loops. I've worked with casting instructors here locally and apparently it's not uncommon.

Eliminating this slack solved the problem. Actually, eliminating slack and "slack is the enemy" is something I very commonly read in fly fishing.

Am I completely nuts, or does anyone else see this? Why is this bad advice? Granted there are a lot of ways to mess up a cast, but this helped me so I figured why not toss it out there .

---------- Post added at 09:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 PM ----------

Oh and one more off topic - thanks for the lead on those fly lines Rip. I have 2 of the sink tips and like them a lot. I found them to cast pretty similar to the floating lines I have, which kind of surprised me. They shoot a little better though with the extra weight.

Okay, I believe I'll move on from this thread . Back on topic --
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