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Old 03-16-2013, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

Okay, so it is safe to say that more leverage is not always desirable if you don't want to break your line...?

And further, "move leverage" is often not desirable when fishing! (e.g. when using relatively light line for the size of the fish)

Okay - this won't be the last time I'm wrong about something.

It does kind of make sense in that I'd rather lift a heavy weight with a pool cue than a 12' thin piece of sapling .
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Old 03-16-2013, 10:40 AM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbineblade View Post
provides much less ability to flex and protect the line from breakage correct?
To a point, but leaders used offshore are protected by the reel's drag not the rod.

In my opinion the fly gear should stay inshore, fish that at 60lbs can dump a 130 Shimano Tiagra can turn fly gear into scrap materials.

---------- Post added at 10:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver Dan View Post
That's the reason the IGFA does not allow rods that are overly short. Unfair to the fish.
Exactly the cut off is 6'10" I believe but don't quote me on that. I don't know if that stands for stand up rods or just chair rods but if you look at the IGFA Classed rods most are around 7'+/-.
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:19 AM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbineblade View Post
Okay, so it is safe to say that more leverage is not always desirable if you don't want to break your line...?

And further, "move leverage" is often not desirable when fishing! (e.g. when using relatively light line for the size of the fish)

Okay - this won't be the last time I'm wrong about something.

It does kind of make sense in that I'd rather lift a heavy weight with a pool cue than a 12' thin piece of sapling .
Well you are wrong about the not breaking line thing. If you have a very long rod with very light line, because you are on the short end, you can also feel every bit of pull easily. Being so, you can swing the tip and avoid a break. If I were to target a very hard fighting fish using a very light line, I would want the long rod. The force is not increased in the line, just against you, as you are holding the lever, not the line. Last Spring I wanted to break the 2 lb. tippet Smallmouth record. I used my 15' rod for just that reason.

And furthermore, if the 12' sapling were thicker than the thin part of the pool cue, and at 12' it would be, you are going to be able to lift more with the sapling.
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:46 AM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

What if the sapling was willow? How far into the taper does a 15' rod bend with 1 1/2 lbs, pressure on it? How is this different than using a 8' 3 or 4 wt.?
What tapers are used in Spey rods to accomodate both power and finesse?
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:15 PM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

I think Alan mentioned this (I gave hisnpost a like ), but a lever requires a fulcrum. I don't use this technique, but some anglers take their line hand and place it above the cork, giving themselves a fulcrum to power their lever. I don't know the precise term for a rod without a fulcrum, but I would guess it's anything but a lever. Does a longer rod give the fish an advantage? The fish lacks a fulcrum as well, and I can assure you from personal experience that a longer rod makes my manly wrists sore.

When my wife and I bought our first big sailboat, the mast was 22 feet long. It weighed about 70lbs,and hinged onto a plate mounted on the deck. Raising the mast from horizontal began with very little effort. We moved from the top of the mast toward the hinge on the deck. Once the mast was raised to an angle greater than 45 degrees, it felt like it weighed a ton! We did this once at the beginning of the season,and once at the end. Lowering the mast was no more easy then raising it, and once the angle fell below 90 degrees, I was using every ounce of energy in body to hold it. We had that boat for five years, and it wasn't until the fourth year that I decided to tie a line to the top of the mast and winch it into place....DUH! Our next sailboat was much larger, and our marina used a crane to step the mast. If we view our wrist as the mast step, and the rod as the mast, a fish could have the advantage. Our very first sailboat had a short mast that just dropped in place.
EDIT: It just dawned on me that I was the fulcrum when raising the mast! The closer I moved to the deck plate, the greater the advantage was for the top of the mast. If this equates in any way to fishing, a longer rod without a fulcrum will not help the angler.
I

Last edited by FrankB2; 03-16-2013 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbineblade View Post
Hi - this came up in another thread and I've read it in at least one fly fishing book I own. The argument is that for offshore SW fly fishing that a longer rod provides the fish more leverage against the fisherman and therefore should not be used.

Didn't someone famous say that "with a long enough lever you can move the earth"?

To me this makes absolutely no sense. Can someone explain how a longer rod would provide you less leverage? And if so, what's the cut-off. Does a 9' rod give the max you can get, and anything longer is a disadvantage? Does a 5' fly rod give you more leverage than a 9' rod? I'd always assumed that if someone used a "shorter" rod for offshore fishing that they had done so simply because a really long rod (10-14') would be cumbersome to move around on the boat.

I'd like to see the opinions on this and obviously mine are pretty clear . Thanks!
I wrote about this on other BBs. Your book is correct.

The misconception is that long rods give the angler an "advantage" when fighting a fish. This is only true if the angler has the strength to overcome the mechanical advantage that the long rod gives the fish. That is why long light stiff rods make smaller fish feel like they are stronger.

Look at the rods used by fishermen to lift huge halibut from great depths in Alaska. For these fish the angler needs the mechanical advantage. These rods are short, relatively stiff, and the upper hand hold of the rod is relatively high on the rod compared to the rod's length. The butt of the rod is placed in a socket of the angler's fighting apron, and this is the fulcrum. When fighting a fish, a fly rod is a class three lever just like most of the extremity joints in our body (your elbow, knee, finger joints function as class 3 levers). The closer the "effort" or pull point (fore grip of the rod) is to the load (rod tip), the greater the mechanical advantage of the lever (rod).

Click the image to open in full size.

The purpose of a "fighting butt" (force in the image above) is to place the upper hand hold higher on the rod. That is why some anglers will instinctively grab the rod blank above the hand hold for big fish. This gives the angler a mechanical advantage but it can break the rod because the rod is not designed to take the added stress.

See the example of a fishing rod under class 3 lever:

Text Site | Under 11s | Lever Logic

http://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/Conte...-Class-3-lever

Archimedes said, "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world." But he was referring to a class 1 lever like a teeter totter with the fulcrum between the force and the load. He could never move the world with a class 3 levers so that quote does not apply.

Sometimes one confuses rod power with mechanical advantage. Rod power is the ability of the rod to lift a weight. So if you had two short rods with a high rod grips of equal rod lengths, both rods would have the same mechanical advantage. But they would not have the same power. The stronger rod that could lift more weight would be more powerful. Power, mechanical advantage, and rod action are all different properties of a rod.

Rod power and action are also confused with each other. Fly fishers will describe a fast action rod as more powerful, but really they are describing flex pattern and not power. A slow action 8 wt rod is more powerful than a super fast action 5 wt rod.
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Last edited by silver creek; 03-16-2013 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:46 PM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wt bash View Post
To a point, but leaders used offshore are protected by the reel's drag not the rod.

In my opinion the fly gear should stay inshore, fish that at 60lbs can dump a 130 Shimano Tiagra can turn fly gear into scrap materials.

---------- Post added at 10:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 AM ----------



Exactly the cut off is 6'10" I believe but don't quote me on that. I don't know if that stands for stand up rods or just chair rods but if you look at the IGFA Classed rods most are around 7'+/-.
Minimum length for a fly rod is 6 feet measured from center of reel seat. Fighting butt maximum is 6 inches on a standard rod and 10 inches on a Spey rod also measured from center of reel seat. The one time I like a short heavy rod for leverage is for pulling saltwater bottomfish out of structure . The fact that the shorter heavier rod has less play helps accomplish this with bottom huggers!

---------- Post added at 12:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 PM ----------

For conventional and spinning rods it's 40 inch minimum on the tip and 27 inch maximum on the butt. Some variations read IGFA handbook for more.
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Old 03-16-2013, 01:09 PM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

All my stand up rods are 5'5" and of unlimited class, when I would R&R tuna commercially I used a 6'6 unlimited class bent butts that didn't come out of the holder. You used to be able to get the unlimited class rods from Finest Kind but I don't know if they are still in business. When I would make the trip offshore IGFA rules were not applicable in the game I was playing, it was about putting the meat in the boat. Still though for me, when the water goes from green to blue, the fly rod is stowed and the 30Ws (for jigging) 80s and 130s came out to play. Unless of course there was lobster buoys close or any flotsam drifted by and it was Mahi time .
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:01 AM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

I am not a physics expert so my terminology my be incorrect...
Quote:
knowing the transfer of energy through a lever is changed by the amount the lever bends.
energy and power are not the same. With a given lever length and fulcrum position it takes the same amount of power to move a given amount of weight regardless if you are using a steel bar or a bendable fiberglass rod. The lever end will need to be moved farther with the glass rod than with the steel rod but it takes the same amount of pressure on the lever to do it. The only difference in reality is that the larger bend will in effect make the lever a little shorter so a little more power will be required but it is not because of the bending but because the lever is somewhat shorter.

I am not a teacher either so I hope this makes sense.
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:10 AM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

To put it another way, the best we can do is a 1 to 1 ratio when fighting fish on a line and that is with a handline - ie. using a Cuban YoYo.

With a rod, any rod, the further away from the line our pulling hand is, perpendicular to the pull angle of the line, the more the advantage to the fish. The stoutest "fly rod" I have, or have ever seen, is 8' 1" long and IFGA compliant. The top end of the foregrip is 31 inches from the end of the fighting butt, just five and a half feet from the tip top. It was built specifically for a bluefin tuna record attempt and handed down to me by friends.

There is more to just length involved in it obviously, namely rod power and taper as others have said. Given a fixed fish, and heavy breaking strength tackle, as rod power decreases you can reach a point where you have an effective rod length of say 2 feet, say, regardless of rod length - yet you cannot: a) budge the fish even with the improved physics or b) exert the pressure on him that your body and terminal tackle are fully capable of because : the rod will likely break if you try. The rod below has an effective length of probably around 2 1/2 feet but is a 9' rod.

Click the image to open in full size.

Short rods, as others have said, are also, in general, easier to manage large fish with around the boat.

Well, I have to go bass fishing now. Wayne came over and wants to check our spots that have re-opened after the govt. sprayed poison all over the area from choppers, killing all the sawgrass, for some secret mission of theirs.

Have a good day.
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