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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2013, 01:21 PM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

Fulcrum (or the lack there of)is the thing that matters in this question I'm guessing. Great topic.
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Old 03-17-2013, 01:48 PM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

The fulcrum in this case, I think, is either the rod hand or the rod's action but I think the rod hand makes more sense but I could be 100% wrong.
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Old 03-17-2013, 01:53 PM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wjc View Post
To put it another way, the best we can do is a 1 to 1 ratio when fighting fish on a line and that is with a handline .
Absolutely. One time when I was deep sea fishing, we had a bunch of Tuna all hit at once. It was turning into chaos. One of the guys on the boat just grabbed the line from one of the rods and handlined one fish in like I said in my post, in just a few minutes so we could get things down to a less hectic mess.

Unless you watch it or try it, it seems hard to believe, but it is a snap. You can drag a monster into the boat in nothing flat.
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Old 03-17-2013, 02:48 PM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ditz View Post
I am not a physics expert so my terminology my be incorrect...

The only difference in reality is that the larger bend will in effect make the lever a little shorter so a little more power will be required but it is not because of the bending but because the lever is somewhat shorter.

I am not a teacher either so I hope this makes sense.
Ditz,

This is exactly the same concept that is used in fly casting called the "Effective Rod Length" (ERL). As a fly rod bends either when casting by placing a casting load on rod tip, OR when fighting a fish by placing a fighting load on the rod tip, the fly rod bends shortening the ERF. This ERF is the length of the rod lever as you correctly indicate above.

In geometry, this is called the chord.The chord is a line which joins two points on an arc, and it represents the "effective rod length" of a flexed fly rod.

Click the image to open in full size.

During a fly cast, it represents the dotted line in #5 below. The illustration below is from Simon Gawesworth's book Single-Handed Spey Casting. Simon Simon calls this the "leverage length" of the bent rod.

Click the image to open in full size.


The Fly Cast - Fly Fisherman

A fly rod is a casting tool and a fish fighting tool. Is acts as a lever in both situations. But the "advantage" the rod lever gives us to move a light line a greater distance than our hand moves, is a disadvantage when the tables are turned and we a fighting a heavy and powerful fish.

The difference is that a fly line and fly are "passive" in their resistance. Their resistance is due to gravity and air resistance so they cannot pull more than we pull. This is Isaac Newton's third law of motion.

But a heavy and powerful fish is an active source of resistance. They actively pull against us and when they pull against a long fly rod, they have the mechanical advantage. If we are pulling 1/3 up the fly rod, they have a 3:1 advantage against us. If they pull with 50 lbs of force on the end of the rod, we need 150 lbs of force to resist.

That is why we have drags when we fight heavy fish. In a very real way, it prevents a 100 lb tuna from pulling us overboard.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 03-17-2013, 06:24 PM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

Silver, I'm glad somebody was paying attention to math and physics. I looked at one of your links, and it would seem that a type 3 lever is more like a crane, than the lever we think of when lifting a house. Good stuff!
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Old 03-17-2013, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

This thread has been one hell of a physics lesson!

Some famous Physics guy said that he preferred the term "philosopher of science" versus "physicist" because "physicist" is difficult to pronounce and sounds stupid .
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankB2 View Post
Silver, I'm glad somebody was paying attention to math and physics. I looked at one of your links, and it would seem that a type 3 lever is more like a crane, than the lever we think of when lifting a house. Good stuff!
I wasn't going to post this but since we are into the levers and fighting fish, here we go for the surprise part of a fishing rod as a lever. It is lever magic!

We already know from my previous post that when we fight a fish, from the angler's perspective the rod is a type 3 lever. The fisherman pulls up (force) and the fish pulls down (load). Notice that both the force and load can be expressed as as in Pounds in the english system and as Newtons in the metric system. So lets start with the concept that load and force are both in units of pounds of force. So we see that they are interchangeable.

Click the image to open in full size.


But what is the fishing rod from the perspective of the fish? The rod must also be a lever, but is it a type 3 lever from the fish's perspective? Well, yes and no. Clearly it is type 3 lever for the angler but when we turn a type 3 lever upside down, it becomes and functions as a type 2 lever for the fish.

From the fish's perspective, the angler is the load and the fish provides the force. Here is a type 2 lever.

Click the image to open in full size.

The illustration has the effort or force pulling up which is normally how a human would use a type 2 lever to lift a load. But the fish is actually pulling down.

So lets turn the type 2 lever over and flip it horizontally as in the image below. It still is a type 2 lever for the fish, BUT if we now change the "load" of the fisherman's pull to a "force" and the "effort" of the fish to a "load," this type 2 lever become the type 3 lever for fisherman from his perspective. Both images below from a physics standpoint are identical levers.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

This explains how the fisherman has to exert a greater force, because the rod to him is a type 3 lever; and the fish has to exert less, because the rod to the fish is a type 2 lever.
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:28 AM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

There was a time long ago that I naively thought I was going to apply what little I learned about physics and engineering in school to the mechanics of how a fishing rod behaved. Let me say I didn't get very far before my head started to hurt, and I gave up. You folks have gone alot farther in this post than I ever got. Good work and very interesting reading.

Over the years I have thought about rod length from a different perspective, applying what I learned in martial arts to how to fight fish. There is a basic tenant in martial arts- Control the head, and you control the body. The body has no choice but to follow wherever the head goes. I think the same applies to fish, particularly where I do most of my fishing, in moving waters.

A fish's head does not move up and down, so when you apply overhead pressure, it needs to be sufficient to lift the fish out of the water column, if not, it doesn't do much good in terms of controlling where the fish goes. The fish feels pressure and responds by heading in the opposite direction. That may be exactly what you don't want to happen.

A fish's head is made to move side to side. When a fish's head is side loaded, it has one of two choices, either follow the direction it's head is being pulled, or expend alot of energy trying to pull it's head in the opposite direction. Of course, things can get even more complicated for poor old Mr./Mrs. fish when that direction of pull suddenly changes from one side to the other. Once the fish starts getting turned, he/she must now also fight any current, which will tend to try to further spin the fish. (When pulling straight up and back on the fish, it takes off straight down steam, so the current seems to be working in the fishes favor).

So it seems to me that a longer rod may assist in helping to control/confuse a fish. A longer rod allows one to apply a sharper angle of side pressure to the fish, and with the mere flip of the angler's wrist, suddenly that point of pressure moves a considerable distance in the opposite direction from where it was just a second ago.

So I wonder if rod length doesn't make a difference along those lines. What do y'all think?
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:47 AM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

this is the reason i really want a 10' 2weight to fish around boulder creek with. I think playing a 10-14" brown on that thing would be amazing =)
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:48 AM
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Default Re: Longer rod = less leverage to fish fish? really?

Put it this way, you're holding a 15 ft broomstick in 1 hand and a 6ft broomstick in the other. The broomstick has a string on the end which is then attached to a tree. If you lever both broomsticks with equal pressure, the 6ft broomstick will flex less (assume equal stiffness on both broomsticks) and directly apply more pressure as less pressure its absorbed by the flex. The 15ft broomstick will flex more, and in turn apply less pressure to the tree as part of the force you exert is mitigated by the stick flexing.

Now picture the same scenario with rods instead of broomsticks. The longer rod will bend a lot more with a much bigger arc as there is more line going through it and the guides. The longer length will also most likely allow it to flex more per section, thus creating a much more acute arc angle. Every angle of degrees your lever arcs is a percentage of the force you applied being mitigated as your pull angle is now split and the rods bend absorbing that force. This is all done to protect tippets and for other reasons, but yes, it can work against you.
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