Selecting a flyline before you buy a rod?

ia_trouter

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Forgive me in advance for this thread, but these are clearly allowed during winter. :)

I have read here and elsewhere that some will only buy a rod that will cast their pre-chosen specific brand/model flyline. I can understand where a particular technical fishing situation. i.e. XXX river-XXX fly, is optimized by a very specialized line in a precise weight/taper etc. From this perspective it makes some sense to me.

Beyond this the reasoning eludes me. It seems odd to buy a presumably highend rod to match a specific flyline that may or may not even exist in a few years, or at least be altered every few years as flyline manufacturers are inclined to do to keep the product line fresh. (At least fresh from a marketing standpoint).

I'll stop and listen now as I am way too new at this for deep independent thoughts. :)
 

itchmesir

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Seems odd... Like buying tires before you buy a car... But at the same time I'd say the fly line is the most important part of a fly fishing rig so maybe I'm in the wrong by not matching my rod choices to the lines I own... But my loyalty to one fly line or another is usually based on whichever one is more deeply discounted...
 

ts47

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I'm not the guy to answer this question with any authority. I'm still going to try though. ;)

I think they are kind of the same, a mutual decision of sorts, with an emphasis on the rod choice over the line. The rod needs to handle the waters/fly/fish/type of line management where it will be used. The line needs to do the same except that it also needs to match the rod. Line management means - will you be doing a lot of mending, is a delicate presentation needed, are you simply throwing a long bomb, etc. The reel is least important. This is my still somewhat uneducated opinion on the order of things.
 

fredaevans

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Naaaaa you've got it wrong. You start with the fly and work backwards which means the line comes (at best) second. Dozens of 'specialty' lines out there so don't get worked up with that. Is a 'specialty' line needed? Probably not if you consider a DT was all that was available for God Knows how many years. Seemed to work out pretty good for most. Then a generic WF, I liked that!

Choose a rod, rod length/action really, that you like and match the line to that and the fly. The true 'nutso' is all the choices for 2hander rods; totally ridiculous and they keep coming out with the new 'next best.' I got out of that rut, to a large degree, by just handing my rods over to Steve Godshall (here in the Rogue Valley) and had him build custom cut lines for the damned things. They ZING! :clap:

fae
 

comeonavs

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Naaaaa you've got it wrong. You start with the fly and work backwards which means the line comes (at best) second. Dozens of 'specialty' lines out there so don't get worked up with that. Is a 'specialty' line needed? Probably not if you consider a DT was all that was available for God Knows how many years. Seemed to work out pretty good for most. Then a generic WF, I liked that!

Choose a rod, rod length/action really, that you like and match the line to that and the fly. The true 'nutso' is all the choices for 2hander rods; totally ridiculous and they keep coming out with the new 'next best.' I got out of that rut, to a large degree, by just handing my rods over to Steve Godshall (here in the Rogue Valley) and had him build custom cut lines for the damned things. They ZING! :clap:

fae
I agree with Fred, except I will add in a little wrinkle...where are you going to use that fly and what are the typical weather / environmental factors in play.

Example

I want to fish a size 20 dry fly
On a small stream
for small fish
Where the wind ......
 
B

Becks and Brown Trout

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A constant theme on forums over the world is what line to use for such and such a rod but the truth is decide what line you want to fish to deliver the size of fly at the range you want and pick the rod that will deliver that line at that range . So often you read that someone is over lining a rod to make it work at a range the angler fishes at surely meaning the angler picked the wrong rod

Andy
 

silver creek

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Forgive me in advance for this thread, but these are clearly allowed during winter. :)

I have read here and elsewhere that some will only buy a rod that will cast their pre-chosen specific brand/model flyline. I can understand where a particular technical fishing situation. i.e. XXX river-XXX fly, is optimized by a very specialized line in a precise weight/taper etc. From this perspective it makes some sense to me.

Beyond this the reasoning eludes me. It seems odd to buy a presumably highend rod to match a specific flyline that may or may not even exist in a few years, or at least be altered every few years as flyline manufacturers are inclined to do to keep the product line fresh. (At least fresh from a marketing standpoint).

I'll stop and listen now as I am way too new at this for deep independent thoughts. :)
You have asked a basic existential question about fly fishing. You have essentially asked, "How do I choose a matching rod and matching fly line to get the most enjoyment out of fly fishing when the rods and lines are constantly changing?" I think I have captured the core of your question.

To answer the second part of your question first, fly rods and fly lines being replaced by new models is a nonissue because ANY decision we make in this life is based on the current conditions. We have no other options than to make the best decision we can using the information we have, including where we think fly rod and fly line development will be going.

For example, when the new nano-resins were developed by 3M, a potential fly rod purchaser should have considered: Either delaying the purchase to buy the newer rods made with the improved resin OR delaying to pick up his current rod choice at a close out price. These are considerations we normally make regarding the future using the currently available information.

The main question seems like a chicken and egg problem to me. The question is how do you know what fly line you want if you have not casted it with a fly rod that is appropriate for it??????????

You get the "drift" of where this is going?

There are many ways to approach the matching of fly line to fly rod question. The most logical approach in my opinion is to choose the action of fly rod that you like casting in the length that you want to use. Doing anything else to me is "bassackwords." I would rather cast a fly line that may not be optimum rather than having to use a rod that is not optimum for my fishing.

The title of your post is, "Selecting a flyline before you buy a rod?" It seems to me that the precondition (assumption) of your question (choosing a fly line before the rod) assumes that the fly rod that is best for the fly line will be the fly rod that is best for you. I think that result would rarely happen. More often than not, one or the other is not perfect.

If the question is about choosing the rod/line combination that maximizes your fly fishing, it seems the first question that needs to be asked is, "What is more important to your enjoyment of fly fishing, the rod or the line?" If it is the fly line and you are willing to adapt your casting, mending and fish fighting properties of the fly rod, then choose the line first.

My opinion is that if I have in my hands the fly rod that fits my casting style the best, I will be able to cast better with the line the matches the rod than using a rod that does not match my natural casting style but has a "better" fly line.

What I am saying is that you must choose an optimum rod/line combination based either based on the rods or the fly lines available at that time. You have no other option. The best way in my view is the traditional way of rod first and line second.
 

ia_trouter

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.... The most logical approach in my opinion is to choose the action of fly rod that you like casting in the length that you want to use. Doing anything else to me is "bassackwords." I would rather cast a fly line that may not be optimum rather than having to use a rod that is not optimum for my fishing......

My opinion is that if I have in my hands the fly rod that fits my casting style the best, I will be able to cast better with the line the matches the rod than using a rod that does not match my natural casting style but has a "better" fly line................

What I am saying is that you must choose an optimum rod/line combination based either based on the rods or the fly lines available at that time. You have no other option. The best way in my view is the traditional way of rod first and line second.
Silver, apologies for butchering your post for brevity but I pulled the pieces you grabbed right from my mind but wasn't comfortable saying with any conviction. :) I struggled mightily my first year in this sport. I needed a rod for small streams and the majority opinion here was I needed a slow and relaxed rod such as a CT. I purchased four CTs and sold all but a 3WT I could cast somewhat acceptably. I wasn't able to cast the others with any comfort and accuracy. Even tried a Superfine I know are highly regarded and it didn't work for me. I gave faster rods a try, and even the very cheapest ones felt right. I still had to work through the flyline matching exercise of course. The specifics of my personal situation are not that important to the question. For me, it was far more important to find a line that was near optimal to the rod type I prefer, and at least acceptable for the flies I need to throw for my water. I may catch a few less fish or not, but I am not fighting a rod that was chosen to match any particular flyline. Confident I can find future model flylines to work with whatever rods I choose to buy now and keep long term.

Dissenting opinions welcomed. I truly posted this thread to learn.
 
J

james w 3 3

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Regarding Silver Creek's post . . .

"Yeah, what he said!"

:thumbsupu
 

silver creek

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I think your experience reveals an important "flaw" in buying a fly rod before trying it.

I can't fault you for buying the Redington CT or the posters for recommending it. However, you will find that in my posts, I will rarely recommend a specific fly rod or even a specific fly line. I don't feel comfortable doing that because there are so many variables.

I think Tom Rosenbauer was perceptive when he said that in his experience, type "A" personality newbies did better with a faster rods and more laid back personalities did better with slower rods. Like many things in life, there will be exceptions; but for most fly fishers, our natural inclinations carry over into fly fishing. Unfortunately, we don't know that when we reply to questions about equipment.

When I learned to fly fish and fly cast, there was not the sophistication and segmentation that is available today in fly rods. Basically, everyone agreed that the Fenwick HMG (High Modulus Graphite) fly rod was the ultimate fly rod. So we bought HMG's and if we couldn't cast it well at first, we learned how.

Because there are so many fly rods now, we have more choices, and more choices means there is a greater probability we will not choose what will turn out to be the best fly rod for our casting style in our price range. But it is still better than having only one choice of the "best" rod.

Now that you have determined what rod action you like, it will be a matter of refining your choices when you feel the need to buy another fly rod.
 

ia_trouter

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I think your experience reveals an important "flaw" in buying a fly rod before trying it.
Unfortunately I found a really good job 20 years ago, not realizing it was located hundreds of miles away from the nearest fly shop. It was a poor career choice I would have to pay for decades later. :)

I am the poster child for casting a rod before you buy it. Unfortunately I still can't, but at least I now have an idea what is much more likely to work for me. I will always buy from a retailer with a fair return policy.
 

eastfly66

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I wouldn't buy a rod for a specific line but I may NOT buy a rod because of the line it takes to function. Why do I want a 5 WT rod that requires a Rio Grand which is really a #6 if I all ready have a 6 wt. that I am perfectly happy with ?


I think it was " trout underground " or something that wrote " So the winner of the Yellowstone 5 shoot out " is a 6 wt.

No wonder a new fast 4 wt can throw a line 70 ' it is a #5.......

and that is not what I want a #4 to do ....

Orvis HLS #4 8.5'
Thomas and Thomas Horizon II 9' 4 wt.
both prefer a True 4 and I use a DT.

Just my view ....and I do see the benefit in the .5 increments
 

ia_trouter

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eastfly

I read a lot of reviews and your point is very valid IMO. There seem to be a lot of fast rods out there that respond just a little too well to a line that is a full wt heavier. It's probably not an accident since mid to long casting distance receives so much emphasis for any rod above a 4WT when rods are reviewed/rated by Yellowstone and others.
 

thewalker1013

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The reel is least important.
While this is absolutely true if you're talking about fishing tiny dries to tiny native trout at 10,000 ft., I have to disagree with this as a blanket statement on fly fishing.

The reel, IMHO, can be the most important part (or at least as important as anything else) when fishing for certain species. I actually spent more money on my last saltwater reel than my last saltwater rod, and the reel choice was where I started when putting the rig together. How it balanced and cast with the three rods I'd narrowed it down to made my decision on the rod. Now that's an exception to the rule, sure, but it happened in that case

Reel integrity is just as important in a fight with a spool-smoking redfish, bonefish, permit, etc. as anything I can name. Obviously other important factors all matter as well but I see a good smooth drag that won't fail as essential.

I've never started with a line, but as soon as I say it won't ever happen I'll turn myself into a liar
 

eastfly66

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eastfly

I read a lot of reviews and your point is very valid IMO. There seem to be a lot of fast rods out there that respond just a little too well to a line that is a full wt heavier. It's probably not an accident since mid to long casting distance receives so much emphasis for any rod above a 4WT when rods are reviewed/rated by Yellowstone and others.
With all due respect to Yellowstone and their reviews (Which I really enjoy) but they are a wee bit slanted to western FF and fast rods. They do tell us which line is best , so you know what it is all about.

It all works , my NS II #5 will throw a Grand (gold preferred) , if I want to do a trade in my #6 mod/fast might be looking for a new home.

The up side is with the fast rods and .5 line , you may not need another rod just 1 size up.

Edit: I should add , all the common sense and rational thinking in the world isn't going to stop me from doing the completely irrational thing and buy more rods , not because the marketing guys are so good ( Man , they are real good ) but because I am a hopeless case.
 

comeonavs

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Don't mean to sidetrack this here but in regards to rod action you like, am I weird that I have rods from slow like the Circa to wicked fast like the Flying pig and like them all for different reasons and applications

I literally have a 376-4 ZXL and a 3710-3 TXL and while they are very similar they are also very different and I use each depending on different scenarios I expect to encounter.
 

eastfly66

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Don't mean to sidetrack this here but in regards to rod action you like, am I weird that I have rods from slow like the Circa to wicked fast like the Flying pig and like them all for different reasons and applications

I literally have a 376-4 ZXL and a 3710-3 TXL and while they are very similar they are also very different and I use each depending on different scenarios I expect to encounter.
I want a Circa and a TXL-F .....

and a Streamdance , a One and a Zenith and don't forget the T&T custom bamboo.............

Than the 2 handers ....
 

comeonavs

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I want a Circa and a TXL-F .....

and a Streamdance , a One and a Zenith and don't forget the T&T custom bamboo.............

Than the 2 handers ....
I shouldn't tell ha then my 1WT TXL-f and 389-4 Circa makes a sweet one two punch of dry fly setups for high mountain streams.

Christmas 2012 and Birthday 2013 respectively...thanks to my wife and mom
 

ia_trouter

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Don't mean to sidetrack this here but in regards to rod action you like, am I weird that I have rods from slow like the Circa to wicked fast like the Flying pig and like them all for different reasons and applications

I literally have a 376-4 ZXL and a 3710-3 TXL and while they are very similar they are also very different and I use each depending on different scenarios I expect to encounter.

No worries about a sidetrack, it will come back around to the subject if others want it too . I kept that lone slow 3WT CT in my arsenal for a reason. It's completely me, not the rods. That one soft rod works for some reason as I somehow found it's stroke. I was deeply disappointed when I tried to get a clean 40-50 ft cast from other slow 4-5WT rods under fishing conditions. I tried for months and then I put some RIO Gold on a cheap old faster St Croix I couldn't give away in the classifieds. Funny my cheapest rod is my go to on small streams for now. The ability to finally lay a fly under overhanging brush at some distance inspired me. I need to fish a lot of varied water from my tiny local creeks, still water musky and bass fishing, and hopefully an annual trip for salmon and trout on real Alaskan rivers. That will require skill with at least three rods that have little in common. Trout fishing in Iowa is only as exciting as you try to make it. I have to mix it up with other species. That is why I bought way too many rods my first year (and later sold most of them). :)
 

GrtLksMarlin

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Sounds a lot like "Chicken or Egg" to me though personally I would buy the rod first, I can also see the advantage when things are tight of buying the line first and then naturally you now MUST buy a rod to cast it...

With that alternative logic in mind one could argue that the reel holds an important part in the equation, its degree of based upon line weight and drag required if any, which in reality is based upon the fish.

Now truth be told, I'm of the opinion that the fish (species initially) should be the initiating factor in all this in that what is realistic, and what is practical is actually limiting our perceived vision as to what will ultimately transpire.

Ex.1, 7wt. Rod or Line purchased:
If I purchase a 7wt. rod or line then match it with the other, then add a reel to suit, leaders, tippets and flies, then go to fish my local pond I may soon discover that the 12oz. Bluegills therein cannot take the proper sized flies to match the tippet, to match the leader, to match the line, which is held by the reel that matches the rod.

So though I am able to cast lighter tippets and flies mismatched to the rest (presentation not so much a factor), the fun of the fight aspect is quickly lost as I unintentionally flip them out of the pond like I'm in an old film fleet/market fishing for Tuna........Unfortunately, it still works, so now you're stuck with it.

Ex.2, 12oz. Bluegill expected quarry:
Considering the quarry first, followed by the fly, then tippet, then leader, then line, then rod, then reel, I would end up selecting a 2wt. outfit perfectly matched to my intended prey....Or is it?

We all know what we are catching is not what is really down there to catch. We know that to be fact in that every single time we envision standing by that pond hooking into a Bluegill, we just know that the lunker, the Bull-gill if you will is just laughing at our pathetic offering......Unfortunately the outfit works, so now you're stuck with it.

Ex.3, Proper Planning:
Just knowing that the 12oz. Bluegills we have seen in the past are pitiful at best, and realizing in our hopes and dreams that we really want something more. Know deep in our hearts that there is bigger and better down there....we need to plan ahead for that one fish in that in reality, that is the one we really want to catch. So with that in mind.

You select the 14wt. rod in that so few people make them, and then naturally match the line, offshore reel, leader, shock tippets, tippets and massive, massive 2' long, 3" dia. flies to heave out there with it.......Then invite everyone we know to come over and watch us fish for the Bluegill in the pond, they all expecting 12oz. Bluegills, yet you know deep down lies that 79# Bluegill which will earn you the Nobel Prize for Fishing.

Naturally, your first heave and haul of that fly through the water finds every single Bluegill in that pond literally leaping out of it onto the shore like flying fish to get away, and though in a single cast you have out fished every single human that has ever fished that pond (and most of the Raccoons) everyone tells you point blank........"Are you nuts? That rig is meant for Marlin Fishing out in the ocean, not for Bluegill!"
Unfortunately the outfit worked, so now you're stuck with it. Yet more so there are no more Bluegill in the pond.....SO......

You go in the house and tell the wife what a great fisherman you are. How absolutely everyone said you should take that outfit Marlin fishing, so you have decided to sell the house, cash out the kids college funds, buy a top of the line 40' Offshore Fishing Yacht with all the goodies, and move to Cuba to pursue what is clearly a divine calling so you can use your new fishing outfit.

Naturally once there drinking rum and smoking cigars off the back of your Offshore fisherman you name "Happy Hooker" like 10,000 others before you, crewed by scantily clad bronze beauties as you reel in grander Marlin after grander Marlin, claiming to your wife how you just know any day now that 79# Bluegill is going to bite, you fish away for all of about 3 months till suddenly the heat gets too intense and your buddy back home gives you a call on the Sat-Phone.

"Hey, pack your bags buddy, I just found this awesome pond that is just loaded with Bluegills! C'mon up for a couple of weeks, lets fish!"

So you tell the wife to put your cigars in the humidor, keep the rum on ice, park the boat and tell the beauties to work on their tans, you'll be back in 2 weeks.

Then go out and buy a 2wt. outfit with all the fixins, because everyone knows a 14wt. is for Marlin.

Clearly the only option therefor is Ex.3.

Line first and then the rod....how silly.

B.E.F.
 
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