A Griz human encounter that went bad....

[huntschool]

I almost hesitate to post this but.....

As I am sure many of us here have heard of the fatal Grizzly incident outside of Glacier NP.

I am starting to wonder about the validity of the re-introductions of top tier predators into space where they and humans must coexist. Given that they(predators) were extirpated from said habitats at least in part due to their danger to humans and livestock. Many folks just love the re-intro of the wolves.... have they ever seen a pack hunt and take prey tearing flesh off while the animal is still quite alive and bawling. I would propose they have not, not a sight for the faint of heart. As to the big bears, they are what they are all the way back to early research by the brothers Craighead who commented they were the most unpredictable animal in the world......

Before you start shooting at me understand that I am a trained biologist/wildlife guy and proud of it. I am, to some extent really on the fence here. I like being able to fish without needing to carry a Mod 29 with Buffalo Bore rds in it or better yet add a 12 ga shotgun and 00 buck to my on stream kit..... Been there done that. I was real "flinchy"

What do you all think about these animals being in close proximity to humans and realizing that the grizzly knows he is the top of the food chain and lets not make it way political or the admin folks will shut it down....

Just some discussion..... How about you guys and gals that fish out there in the Yellowstone and Glacier Eco systems........

 

[Vulpes]

I would tend to agree with you, however I'm a yolka local to the rural parts of the north. I was not pleased to see the return of wolves. As far as brown bears, I can't speak for that. I do carry a 357 magnum with me when I'm in the woods, but mainly for black bears and the two legged variety of animal. To each his own, but I do see the point of how our ancestors were wise to move some animals around. Hate me or love me, tis what tis.

 

[scotty macfly]

I think you said it all Huntschool, the grizzly knows it's at the top of the food chain, so like it or not, we must respect that. When we travel into their territory, it's just that....it's THEIR territory. Don't think for a moment that when people swim in the ocean that there isn't the danger of sharks, and shark attacks are happening more often, and in areas where it's never been a problem.

I've always heard Glacier has more bears than Yellowstone, so folks need to watch and listen around them for any signs of a possible run in. There's an area I fish with willows so thick, if I was to run into a bear or moose with an attitude, I'm not getting out alive. Just last weekend I was in that place, and I was watching a guide and client fishing and they never noticed me. As I was watching them, a deer came out of the willows between them and I, and the two men never noticed it. I had to wonder how many times had it been possible that a moose or black bear come out of the willows behind me, and I never saw it. But I'm always watching the tops of the willows for unexplained movement.

When it comes to reintroducing animals, the people who make that decision must keep in mind that there will be consequences for their actions. So who's really in the wrong, an animal that has been moved from it's normal habitat to another, or the people who moved it not following through on research and studies. Who's to blame when a fatal encounter happens, the animal, or the victim, or the people who moved the animal?


It can be a mess all the way around if not done properly like putting a grizzly outside of a small mountain community, but no matter what, we must always keep our senses heightened being in those areas. I think reintroducing animals can be a good thing if done properly and managed well by watching and keeping tabs on the animals. Don't place a wolf pack near a cattle ranch would be a good start. But who's to say the pack won't find a cattle ranch on their own? That's what we need to watch for.

Now this just came into thought, why plant animals in different areas just so rangers can play animal baby sitters? Some animals we really don't need to watch so closely, like maybe a badger, but wolves and bears, I don't think Colorado being more and more populated with people can handle those two animals. Bad joo-joo will happen. Even in protected areas like Yellowstone the animal attacks are rising because of people not being educated and respecting the animals like they should. And the animals are the ones who pay for it, and their the protected party! I'm all for reintroduction, but for some animals, just for the protection from us and them, the government needs to think hard.

Then again, read my signature.

 

[ia_trouter]

Subject interests me enough to read this book which is very good, though written in a Pro wolf perspective for the most part.

https://www.amazon.com/Return-Wolf-Yellowstone-Thomas-McNamee/dp/0805057927

Please allow me to be inconsistent on this one for the sake of conversation.

Not sure I would be pro Grizzly in the lower 48, I believe it is possible they may occasionally hunt man. Much more likely to do so than a wolf which is more likely to avoid man if possible.

Wolves are ruthless hunters, animals are mean to each other. It's nature. Northern Pike are mean to baby ducks and house cats kill birds for something to do. How a wolf hunts is not at all relevant IMO.

Should we also eradicate alligators from Florida? How about pit bulls that probably kill more humans than all wildlife combined annually. I'm not anti-dog at all, just making a point based on human deaths.

 

[rsagebrush]

Actually Man is at the top of the food chain as this grizzly will soon find out.

It is not their territory at all it is Mans territory as this grizzly will soon find out.

Definitely respect them and keep them culled way back.

 

[mka]

We just had a marathon runner attacked by a black bear last week in the Jemez Mountains...same forest I frequent to fish. I don't know what to think about reintroductions of bears and wolves and can't impact those initiatives, anyway. But, I do know for certain I'm scared of bears (3 bear attacks here last year) and I started packing bear spray along with a .45 in certain parts of New Mexico....just want more than a whistle if I'm being threatened by a bear.

 

[nevadanstig]

I am not experienced around Grizzlies. Plenty of Black bear, large kitties, and lots of other things that have the capability of chowing down on me out here though.
It's part of tge experience being in the wild. I personally like it when I cross paths with a bear or cougar. Of course, I've spent a lot more time in the woods and desert than most. As others have said, stay back, respect the boundaries, and know at least the basic behavior of what's around you.
Yes, accidents will happen. But compared to the city? How many are killed by others in robberies, car accidents, murders, etc compared to how many are mauled to death by bears?
I'll take my chances deep in the woods over deep in the city any day.

 

[Ard]

I wasn't aware of a fatal encounter down there but it isn't the first. In 1981 I was fishing the Madison River and came upon a roped off area where there had been a camper killed just 6 days prior to my wandering up there. Same trip on Grayling Creek way down below the falls (that's about 2 stream miles downstream of Rt. 191) I came across a really big one but lived to talk about it on a forum. Now for 12 years they have been a fact of life. Out at the cabin there are a bunch of them. They get shot up pretty good every year so they avoid me and I do them as well. I'm a little short on bear pictures because I don't hang out once I spot one out there.

Five years ago I did have a situation where I had to spray one and can tell you 2 things about that. Bear spray works and I don't look forward to the next encounter. The bear in question was the Alaskan Brown variety and I can only estimate the size but am comfortable saying 700 pounds and most likely a male. That bear actually stalked me and then rather than an all out charge it just pushing me up river and coming closer and closer. I wrote the whole story out on my blog pages here and called it the bear encounter. BTW I had the Boss, my 90 pound German Shepherd with when that happened and the bear had eyes for us both..................... They're just one of those things that make being in the backcountry just that. I've learned enough about them to avoid most but a traveling bruin is the one you can't predict at all.

---------- Post added at 05:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

Just found the article and learned the victim was riding a Mountain Bike. I somehow knew not to use my bike on the Campbell Creek trail up toward Centennial Park outside Anchorage when I first moved here. They are quiet and faster than walking. I've thought about taking it to the cabin because I've got a trail there but am way too scared of running up on a bear.

I'm not saying this isn't a case of a rogue bear but learning of the bicycle adds a new component to this situation.

 

[goat trail]

I used to live right outside of the west side of Glacier where the attack occurred. The wife and I hiked a few hundred miles a year in the park and saw dozens of bears.

We always made lots of noise. Many of the attacks I remember hearing about were caused by poor food storage, surprising them, or simulating prey (running, biking, etc.) I'm on the fence as well when it comes to reintroduction of these animals. It's amazing there aren't more attacks considering the millions of visitors that frequent these parks.

I've also heard of hunters being chased off there kill. They say that the animals are beginning to be attracted by the sound of a gunshot. I'm not sure if that's the case, but maybe.

 

[dean_mt]

I'm not sure what this story has to do with re-introduction of wolves.

The grizzly bears in the Glacier ecosystem were not re-introduced. They are some of the last grizzlies left that were not killed off, and have repopulated the wilderness moving down from Canada. Gizzlies were re-introduced into the greater Yellowstone ecosystem, but not to my knowledge into Glacier.

As for wolf re-introduction, I do not believe there has ever been wolf human attack. Most of the hatered toward wolves is because they make it harder for people to hunt elk. Ranchers have legit concerns.

The grizzly bear population is definitely growing around Glacier and Yellowstone. Bears have been spotted far out on the Eastern Front in the grass land - which was once their natural habitat. There are grizzlies in the Blackfoot Valley that have made their way from the Bob Marshall Wilderness. And they are spreading out around Yellowstone. The grizzly will be de-listed soon. The state of Montana is already considering grizzly bear hunting regulations.

I am also on the fence. I believe that we need to preserve wild places and that means allowing wild animals to live free, including the apex predators.
Ecosystems are not complete without them. Unencumbered elk and deer herds, arguable do more damage to ranch land and riparian habitat than wolves do by killing a few cows or sheep before they are killed. I also believe that when these critters get to the point of healthy, sustaining populations, that management is necessary.

 

[802flyfish]

I worked in the Grand Teton National Park last summer. Being from the east coast I was always skeptical about going into the back country and fishing in real bear country, especially alone. I never witnessed any Grizzlies while fishing. I was gearing up at the dam parking lot one day on the Snake River when an biologist stopped me and informed me that a taged grizzly was a few hundred yards down along the banks. No one was allowed past the survey gauge so I didn't get a chance to view it. I did encounter some moose while fishing the upper Snake River above Jackson lake. I like the feeling of not having to look over your back every few minutes to see if an apex predator is near by. The only real ecounter I experienced was hiking the Teton Crest with my girlfriend and walking around a corner to witness a black bear and two cubs within 20 feet. Slowly backed up and started down the trail with a bottle of bear spray in each hand haha. A park EMT was killed by a grizzly in Yellowstone that summer. Guy was hiking alone off trail with no bear spray.. I had a 10mm glock with hot loads that I carried sometimes in the back county, but I always carried bear spray and felt more safe with it personally

Mr. Treat was a Forest Service law enforcement officer. RIP

 

[Bigfly]

Bruce, I think we need ways to reduce the human population.
How are we special?
There should be a variety of approved methods. (Besides war..)
When I was a diver, A great white lurking was called reality....
and we went, and had a good time because of it.
Granted, a GW isn't a reintroduced specie......
People should be able to risk it all on a hike. Nature isn't here for our sensibilities, which these days are starting to be pretty wimpy, and over protected.
I have watched nature at its worst, and have come to love it.
Would you rather have nature behind a fence....? Sanitized?
The apex predators should not have been removed to begin with...
Now we should deal, with re-reality.
Have you read Aldo Leuepold's tale of how once a mnt lion was removed from a mountain, it wasn't really a mountain anymore....

Jim

 

[blackbugger]

I live near and fish, hike, occasionally back pack and mountain bike in grizzly country. I'm always a little on edge when fishing and camping and wouldn't have it any other way.

Most of you already live in a relatively sterilized environment with little legitimate fear of being attacked and killed by a wild animal. I see no reason to completely remove grizzlies and wolves from the environment they have left and as far as wolves go they are really not much of a danger at all.
We all have much more to fear from our fellow man than any animal in the woods.

Also, I don't get the "bad wolf" judgement of predatory behavior. Holding wolves up to some sort of moral standard is just bizarre given what humans routinely do to each other.
The whole greater Yellowstone ecosystem is, in my opinion (which is shared by most biologists working in the area), much better off with wolves.
The big issue when I moved here thirty years ago was the massive over grazing of the park. The change since reintroduction of wolves is amazing, dramatic and well documented.

The fires in '88 and the reintroduction of wolves have made the park a better place. I don't think it's really debatable unless your vision for Yellowstone is a strictly human controlled environment. I prefer it the way it is right now and think that people who are so afraid of bears and wolves should just stay away or not venture into the back country which is actually what most people do, avoid the back country.
Incidentally 224 people died on Montana roadways last year. It's so strange the way we just accept that and for the most part don't really even worry about the very real potential for death on the roads yet fear the grizzly in the woods far, far, more.

 

[fredaevans]

I live near and fish, hike, occasionally back pack and mountain bike in grizzly country. I'm always a little on edge when fishing and camping and wouldn't have it any other way.

Most of you already live in a relatively sterilized environment with little legitimate fear of being attacked and killed by a wild animal. I see no reason to completely remove grizzlies and wolves from the environment they have left and as far as wolves go they are really not much of a danger at all.
We all have much more to fear from our fellow man than any animal in the woods.

Also, I don't get the "bad wolf" judgement of predatory behavior. Holding wolves up to some sort of moral standard is just bizarre given what humans routinely do to each other.
The whole greater Yellowstone ecosystem is, in my opinion (which is shared by most biologists working in the area), much better off with wolves.
The big issue when I moved here thirty years ago was the massive over grazing of the park. The change since reintroduction of wolves is amazing, dramatic and well documented.

The fires in '88 and the reintroduction of wolves have made the park a better place. I don't think it's really debatable unless your vision for Yellowstone is a strictly human controlled environment. I prefer it the way it is right now and think that people who are so afraid of bears and wolves should just stay away or not venture into the back country which is actually what most people do, avoid the back country.
Incidentally 224 people died on Montana roadways last year. It's so strange the way we just accept that and for the most part don't really even worry about the very real potential for death on the roads yet fear the grizzly in the woods far, far, more.

Several great posts here and I like this one the best; short, sweet, and to the point. The last bit is the best; you're far safer 'in the woods' than you are on the highway.

Did have to laugh though as this reminded me of my last home in Medford, Oregon. Back yard backed up to Mt. Roxie Ann and the place was loaded with Deer .... and several Coug's. With the first you had to have a 10 foot high chain link fence to keep the buggers out of your back yard.

The later .... night and one of them 'Screams' it was like finger nails on a black board. Even the Dog's hair went straight up!

 

[chechem]

Hard to blame the grizzlies for the problems at all:

 

[mridenour]

I almost hesitate to post this but.....

As I am sure many of us here have heard of the fatal Grizzly incident outside of Glacier NP.

I am starting to wonder about the validity of the re-introductions of top tier predators into space where they and humans must coexist. Given that they(predators) were extirpated from said habitats at least in part due to their danger to humans and livestock. Many folks just love the re-intro of the wolves.... have they ever seen a pack hunt and take prey tearing flesh off while the animal is still quite alive and bawling. I would propose they have not, not a sight for the faint of heart. As to the big bears, they are what they are all the way back to early research by the brothers Craighead who commented they were the most unpredictable animal in the world......

Before you start shooting at me understand that I am a trained biologist/wildlife guy and proud of it. I am, to some extent really on the fence here. I like being able to fish without needing to carry a Mod 29 with Buffalo Bore rds in it or better yet add a 12 ga shotgun and 00 buck to my on stream kit..... Been there done that. I was real "flinchy"

What do you all think about these animals being in close proximity to humans and realizing that the grizzly knows he is the top of the food chain and lets not make it way political or the admin folks will shut it down....

Just some discussion..... How about you guys and gals that fish out there in the Yellowstone and Glacier Eco systems........

Still, I am more afraid of a person in a car with a cell phone than I am getting killed by a bear.

 

[littledavid123]

I often fish in prime grizzly habitat and will get the heebee jeebee's every now and then. But I wouldn't have it any other way because it does offer opportunities to fish without seeing another soul. I am also an adult which means accepting the responsibilities and consequences for my actions without being dependent upon the government or any other human to hold my hand.

Dave

 

[labradorguy]

I often fish in prime grizzly habitat and will get the heebee jeebee's every now and then.
Dave

I know what you mean. I get that same feeling on Arkansas rivers. I'm always hearing banjos. I'll take the bears any day of the week.

 

[huntschool]

blackbugger:

I used the wolf thing as an example of how uneducated to the reality of wild things many, many folks really are.... Nothing more..... Although here in the Upper Mid West there are a number of bird hunters and hound men quite concerned about wolves.....

Of course for many there is more danger from a texting driver or a home invasion etc..... I understand that part.

 

[labradorguy]

I'd hate to see the day when humans decide to take the wild out of the wilderness.

I've had bear problems in the past. Several years ago I had to put one down when it charged into our elk camp and we couldn't deter it's advance. I didn't want to shoot it, but I had no choice. We scared it off when we first saw it across the clearing and walking towards us but he came right back, only the second time he was charging. He made his intentions very clear. It turned out there was a dead elk someone had shot and only hind quartered right behind our camp. It was hidden in some aspens and we had just arrived so we didn't see it. We were in HIS spot, not the other way around. I still get bummed when I think about that experience.

I'm still taking my boys to Yellowstone's Slough Creek backcountry in a couple weeks to the same spot where a bear came up and sniffed our tent two years ago (at night while we were in it). The bears, the cougars, and the wolves are just part of it. It's no different than diving a reef that big tigers frequent. Nobody is forced to do either. I actually feel much safer camped on a British Columbia river than I do walking the street in a place like Ferguson, MO.