Advice - please

[pnc]

Hopefully everyone chimes in. Ex guides, guides, those that use or have used guides, those that haven't. Instructors, newbies, anyone. I'm at a loss.
For a growing number of years. The use of illegal practices by guides has been becoming more common. True, my eyes & ears are in Florida. But I doubt much difference is made nowdays depending on location. I understand reasons for much of this. Not because of guiding once, but as sensible business practice. Make your customer happy.
But to what point ? Heard a conversation at a large outdoor retailer recently. A guide working counter behind fly reels. Was bragging to store customer how he gave bottled water to manatee so his customers could take close up pictures.
Big no - no here in Florida. Last I heard $10,000 fine. One fish out of season can result in boats, trailer, & tow vehicles being impounded. Imagine such is true for messing with manatee.
While most things I could care less about. This is wrong. It's how manatee turn up dead for no apparent reason. Until plastic bottle is found.
So where does it end ? Or what should one do ?

........ pc

 

[kentuckysteve]

Money has a way of making people forget moral principals.Some people will sell their ethics for a good business reputation or completely forget everything they believe in and not think twice about it.Stories like yours about the manatees make me sick but there is probably little that can be done to prevent these things.That's the world we live in.Laws are not in place or not enforced.Sometimes people just turn their head and don't want to see it..Money makes it worth the risk for these people.Look at all the poachers.There is an old saying "it's only illegal if you get caught".

 

[Ard]

Here in Alaska if you are fishing for salmon or steelhead C&R (steelhead are always C&R) no fish intended to be released may be removed from the water. They must be unhooked and released unharmed. This is the rule for rainbow trout as well, especially those in the 'Red Line' rivers and creeks. A red line on a river map means the water contains rainbow / steelhead trout and they are closed to retention of trout.

All one need do is to look at pictures from lodges here to see that the operators and guides allow clients to do all the grip and grin photos they want. There are other things I see frequently but what I've mentioned here is the most widespread case of scofflaw behavior.

 

[JoJer]

The cost of investigating and making a case against poachers is very steep. That's why F&G's concentrate on the most flagrant. They have to depend on the educational benefit of showing the public how costly it can be to cheat. In some jurisdictions, the law hasn't caught up with the times; The maximum fines don't pay the cost of the prosecution, and laws haven't changed to allow recouping the cost of the investigation. Then you come up against the problem of getting juries to find against crooks for "a few extra" fish (or deer, or ducks).
Unfortunately, when ever the legislature (here) decides to squeeze a few more bux out of F&G, it ends up coming out of the enforcement budget.
Every year when I do F&G surveys, I add the request for more enforcement.

 

[karstopo]

Maybe ask those guides that are serving the manatee water if they have a card or get a name then look on the social media sites that fishermen and guides use in your area. I doubt the guide would put illegal activity on his or her page, but maybe the client/sport hash-tagged something relevant in terms of photographic or other evidence.

I know for a fact here in Texas (and other states) people have been investigated and prosecuted based on evidence developed from social media sites like FB.

I've started to really look at my posts and think about how I handle the fish. Should my standard be I'm within the law so who cares what I post or should it be let me conserve and respect the resource as something sacred and highly valuable? More and more, I'm gravitating to the latter and being repelled by the former.

 

[Ard]

I was steelhead fishing with a Guide last fall and he inadvertently lassoed one by the tali which ended up as a foul hook as well. These things happen especially when you have 15' of T 14 on a line................ Anyway, he unceremoniously dragged the fish onto the gravel and rocks as if it were one of 1.5 million sockeye that run that same river each year. Not that I would condone dragging a sock onto shore but if you intend to kill it right there and then that's how it's done. Steelhead are not one of 1.5 million, they are rare and they don't die when they come into fresh water like salmon so............... That's why we have a no retention, keep them in the water rule here, they are precious.

So I come rushing down stream and tell him to get that fish into the river. I told him what the law regarding handling an Alaskan steelhead is and he actually didn't know. It turns out he doesn't know much about fish at all excepting how to catch them and that's what the average client from out of state wants, to catch fish. I can tell you that the longer I'm around the less I am impressed with a great number of people involved in the fishing business. I actually have a code of behavior that has developed over what I can honestly call many years. I fish because it's what I do, it's the only thing in life that I never quit. I respect the fish as having a right to exist and still I use them as if they were toys. This is where a person, if they are so inclined, might develop higher ethical standards than others.

 

[fredaevans]

Here in Alaska if you are fishing for salmon or steelhead C&R (steelhead are always C&R) no fish intended to be released may be removed from the water. They must be unhooked and released unharmed. This is the rule for rainbow trout as well, especially those in the 'Red Line' rivers and creeks. A red line on a river map means the water contains rainbow / steelhead trout and they are closed to retention of trout.

All one need do is to look at pictures from lodges here to see that the operators and guides allow clients to do all the grip and grin photos they want. There are other things I see frequently but what I've mentioned here is the most widespread case of scofflaw behavior.

Pretty much the same here in Oregon, problem is the fishing reg's used to reference some creek/what ever and no one had a clue where that was unless you had a darned good topo map in the car.

Last year they went to 'Plan B' and actually printed maps in the fishing reg's showing where the closed water were located. The closed water's are now done in a blue ink so the 'where' is now pretty darned simple.:wavetowel

fae

 

[kevind62]

Unfortunately, many game & fish laws are very vague. Way too many are subject to interpretation. Take deer hunting here in Alabama. It is still illegal to hunt deer "over bait". But, you can put bait out and hunt in the vacinity as long as you are not within 100 yards of it, it is "out of your line of sight" due to terrain changes or vegitation, and you are not hunting a direct trail leading to it. So, what is a direct trail??? We go over this every year on our land. We have the game warden come in and survey our feeders in conjunction with our hunting stands. One year the game warden says no problem. Everything looks great. The next year, we move nothing. Everything is exactly the same. A new game warden is assigned to our area. He says no, it's not far enough off of a direct trail leading to the feeder. So we move it according to his interpretation. We do this ahead of the season to avoid having to argue this in court. He would be within his right as law enforcement according to the law to issue us a violation and have us go before a judge and argue our case. This is typical. I actually had to plead a case on a hunting law regarding requirement of hunter orange many years ago. I was found not guilty. The law "seemed" cut and dried. Hunter Orange Required AT ALL TIMES while "hunting". IMHO the game warden was just being an @$$#ole. I had walked back to my truck, parked on the main road and was within 10 ft of my vehicle. I had just taken my orange hat off ( it's the south and it was hot ) and was getting ready to unload my gun and get in my truck when he showed up. He checked my license and land permit. All good. He was fixing to walk off when he turned around and asked where my orange hat was. I told him in my back pocket. He wrote me a ticket. I explained to the judge what transpired and proved I was not "hunting". I won't go in to grave detail on just how difficult it was to argue with the DA on this with some of the ridiculous questions he asked, but I had an asnwer for all of them. I think the judge actually got a kick out of it. So, my advice is be careful even when you think you are following the law. Your interpretation might not be the same as the guy with the pen and ticket book. Some places are getting better at being a bit more detailed about their laws. On the Cherokee Reservation in NC it's on a map provided and is also clearly marked with signs on the river. I had a group of teenagers come in to a spot I was fishing when law enforcement showed up. He wrote them a ticket. I wasn't sure why until I surveyed the situation. The sign and regulation clearly stated fly rod and reel only and artificial flies only. The kids were using a spinning rod. After the officer left the scene one of the kids actually took a picture of the sign. Not sure what for. It would definitely be the nail in the coffin if they were planning to argue it before a judge.

 

[JDR]

When I first started trying to learn how to fish I hired a guide. (the man who owned the shop where I bought my first rod and reel) A man in his middle fifties, born and raised in this region and a respected guide. I landed a 19 inch Brown trout on a 3wt. rod and line. We were all excited. (my wife was there too) We took the obligatory "fish out of water, big grin" photo. When the photo was over, the guide took the Brown and flung it over his shoulder about 15 feet, into the water! I didn't know much then, but I had read about proper C&R technique and was pretty upset. About one minute later that Brown came floating down the river on its side. He picked it up and moved it back and forth underwater about three times and gave it a a six foot toss. The fish returned, again on its side. This time he spent a little more time resuscitating the fish. It didn't come back, but to this day I believe the fish just went somewhere and died. About a half hour later I told the guide I was done. I paid the day rate, even though I quit just after lunch. He seemed quite surprised when there was no tip. I have not gone back to that store. The only thing I could think of was to use my wallet to show my displeasure.
I know no laws were broken, but I was complicit in the death of that magnificent Brown trout and it still bothers me.

 

[pho_phizzat]

The pinned egg rig is a huge deal on the platte the last few years.

The game and fish got involved a few years ago but seem to turn a blind eye to it now. Not sure if it is due to the amount of revenue the guides that run it bring to the state or what.


It's interesting to see which guide outfits will use it and which ones denounce it. It's a very polarizing issue.


Either way the battle rages on.

 

[bloomagoo]

When I first started trying to learn how to fish I hired a guide. (the man who owned the shop where I bought my first rod and reel) A man in his middle fifties, born and raised in this region and a respected guide. I landed a 19 inch Brown trout on a 3wt. rod and line. We were all excited. (my wife was there too) We took the obligatory "fish out of water, big grin" photo. When the photo was over, the guide took the Brown and flung it over his shoulder about 15 feet, into the water! I didn't know much then, but I had read about proper C&R technique and was pretty upset. About one minute later that Brown came floating down the river on its side. He picked it up and moved it back and forth underwater about three times and gave it a a six foot toss. The fish returned, again on its side. This time he spent a little more time resuscitating the fish. It didn't come back, but to this day I believe the fish just went somewhere and died. About a half hour later I told the guide I was done. I paid the day rate, even though I quit just after lunch. He seemed quite surprised when there was no tip. I have not gone back to that store. The only thing I could think of was to use my wallet to show my displeasure.
I know no laws were broken, but I was complicit in the death of that magnificent Brown trout and it still bothers me.

I think if you had given him some feedback about why you quit early and didn't tip him it might have had him thinking twice about his behavior with his next client. Few of us enjoy a potential confrontation but these are also teachable moments that can have a positive impact.

 

[nevadanstig]

For some reason, despite being full of crime, I rarely see anything illegal on the water. Lots of moronic and rude behavior, but aside from littering, nothing illegal. The vast majority of poaching issues has to do with hunting, and a large portion of that is people from Utah coming in to southern or central nevada to do it. For some reason, that's a MAJOR problem.
Enforcement gets tough, simply because most states completely understand their wildlife enforcement. It's typically known as the toughest job to get in law enforcement. My father tried for years and years. Nevada for example is something like the 5th largest state in the entire US, and has a total of 36 wardens and deputies. Total.
Completely unrelated, but can someone explain to me what exactly is going on with serving a manatee bottles water? Do these things really like to drink bottled water with it being bad for them? Am I missing something here?
I see lots of wild animals, yet it's never crossed my mind to serve any of them some bottled water?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[fr8dog]

Hard call to make these days. I'd have probably made a comment in a non-smartass way that it might not be a good idea to be doing stuff like that to manatees. Big fines and all that. It can be done without a confrontation.

I've seen new folks doing stuff and I just mentioned size and possession limits. Saved one guy's butt on a small walleye at a fishing dock a few years ago. Too small, needed 18" but it only went 15". I quietly told him the lake was different from the norm. 20 minutes later the Ok Wildlife Officer pulled up and checked everyone. Unintentional but would have cost him $180.

Lake Amistad many years ago BCP (before cell phone) I'm cutting between two small islands. Four guys on the bank, small boat, chopping up a deer. Said to my bud that I thought the season was over. He says it is. Turned around the other side of the island and the park service office was only a mile away. They hauled butts over and nailed them with the evidence. Talked to them the next weekend and they said they had been looking for them for a while. I won't confront poachers with guns.

 

[darkshadow]

Completely unrelated, but can someone explain to me what exactly is going on with serving a manatee bottles water? Do these things really like to drink bottled water with it being bad for them?

You've never ran into a thirsty manatee?

 

[pnc]

You've never ran into a thirsty manatee?

Not sure why manatee drink. Mammals ? Dumb ? People feed them heads of lettuce all sorts of stuff. Can't say if bottled water is bad for them. That is without the bottle.
Think manatee believe they are being feed. People's grip slips.... there goes bottle. More often manatee decides to take what is being held out. Swallows bottle.

This was just the last incidence. I'm going to have talk with club next meeting about this. Store is one that club gives gift certificates for every month (biggest target fish at outing). Couple of club members own fly shops. New one just opened. They could use more business.

.......... pc

 

[al_a]

I've never seen a guide do something illegal on the Yellowstone River where I live part time, and seldom even any really unethical stuff, other than being pretty careless about how they handle whitefish sometimes. But the other day, a guide with two clients really ticked me off. He was over on the other bank while I was drifting down a mediocre bank in my Water Master. Suddenly he decided he liked my bank better, and rowed quickly across the river to move right in front of me, so close I had to back row to keep from running into him. Unbelievable.

 

[JDR]

I think if you had given him some feedback about why you quit early and didn't tip him it might have had him thinking twice about his behavior with his next client. Few of us enjoy a potential confrontation but these are also teachable moments that can have a positive impact.

You are absolutely right, Bluemagoo, and i wish that I had done that. I was too green and intimidated to tell him. I have thought about going into the shop to tell him, but too much time has passed. I have thought about that day a lot and I have learned from it. It will never happen again.

 

[patrick62]

The guides on the Housatonic are generally pretty good about not barging in on the ambulatory angler. The Farmington, umm, let's just say a few of them could use a refresher course in basic manners.

I do my part, too. If I've been fishing a spot for a while and a drift boat appears, it might be time for me to take a cigar break and let someone else have a go. Besides, I always have a small point and shoot camera with me, and over the years I have taken some pretty decent photos of guys catching fish, which I can then use for my newspaper column.

One spring I was in the fly shop on the Farmington and some guys were talking about poachers who had set up a line that stretched across the river, with hooks and things dangling from it. That crew got caught and, incredibly, got caught again, doing the same thing.

During last year's drought I witnessed groups of Asian people, armed with spinning rods that were more suitable for surf casting and five gallon buckets, catching and keeping everything on the Housatonic, within the Trout Management area. I reported it but the Connecticut Department of Energy and Environmental Protection has only a handful of officers west of the Connecticut River and they spend a lot of time in parks breaking up fights and making minor drug busts.

I met one of them in the course of my reporting duties and told him about the Asian guys. He said that was a recurring problem; the fish, still alive (if only barely) are sold in that condition in Asian markets in and around New York City and are highly prized in that community.

 

[pnc]

Original post to begin thread was is hopes that someone or a combination of people might have ideas. Ideas that could possibly rectify situation or at least be a beginning to an end.
I've only become involved in an orginization (club) geared toward fly fishing this past year. Though the club & this site I've learned of the myriad of organizations that exist today. Many here a probably part of some.
So, is there a way of uniting such into an effective lobbying body. One that could make changes. Or someplace else such a body can come from. Or maybe I should just shut up if this can't happen.

....... pc

 

[fq13]

Original post to begin thread was is hopes that someone or a combination of people might have ideas. Ideas that could possibly rectify situation or at least be a beginning to an end.
I've only become involved in an orginization (club) geared toward fly fishing this past year. Though the club & this site I've learned of the myriad of organizations that exist today. Many here a probably part of some.
So, is there a way of uniting such into an effective lobbying body. One that could make changes. Or someplace else such a body can come from. Or maybe I should just shut up if this can't happen.

....... pc

As a Floridian I can offer nothing but praise for FWC officers. I have been stopped and inspected numerous times and zero problems. Three things that WILL **** them off? An illegal snook, feeding gators or messing with manatees, whether it be speeding in manatee zones,or feeding them. And yes, fresh water, which they crave causes them to go towards boats rather than away from them.We know how that story ends.
Report the guy. It only takes a few idiots before regs are written to deal with them and we all suffer. Just my .02.