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Old 10-17-2008, 12:47 PM
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Default more knots

I like to experiment with knots and would like to share a couple of my findings. I use Berkley XL and Vanish for leader material. I tie my knots dry
(no lubrication).
Improved clinch: I seldom use because it tests stronger than my splice knots. Four full turns(not3,not5). Tag end exits top loop opposite standing
line.The tag end should be near and 90 degrees from standing line after tightening. After pulling knot down to hook pull on tag end to close loop before tightening. Ten knot test:6 lb XL (7.5lb max,6.5lb min,7.2lb avg, line
broke 7 out of 10 times.
Loop knot: Which I haven't seen published so I'll call it greens loop. I've
used it for many years with shock tippets where knot strength doesn't matter.
Lately I use it almost all the time. I like loop knots and it breaks before the splice knot. A small, simple to tie, adjustable loop size knot. Tie an overhand
loop. Pinch the crossover point and the fly with one hand. Poke the tag end
back through the loop two times with the tag end exiting the loop opposite the standing part each time. Pinch the tag end and the standing part with one hand and pull on the fly to close knot. When closed pull on tag end to adjust loop size. Pulling down to hook eye gives a loop about the size of the hook eye. Pull on standing part to tighten. I use Vanish for shock tippets and sinking lines which doesn't slip. XL will slip so I add a overhand knot (not to tight) after tightening and then retighten. The two knots test similar with different line sizes of XL and Vanish. How they work with different leader material I don't know.
green
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Old 10-17-2008, 05:19 PM
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Default Re: more knots

First question, but more to come (I think) after I re-read your post: Why do you tie knots dry (sans lubrication)? Do you think your test break results might come out differently if there were less friction, hence less heat build-up, in the line when tightening if lubricant were used?

I guess that's two questions.
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Old 10-18-2008, 09:36 AM
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Default Re: more knots

Art Schecks article The Last Link on the Midcurrent site states he doesnt put terminal tackle in his mouth. Make the leader to hook the weakest connection. The improved clinch knot isn't a good knot. The improved clinch knot tests very good for me. I try to find knots that that test good dry. Some knots test better dry. Not everyone ties knots the same. My sons triple surgeons beats my triple suregeons almost every time. Some knots are called 100% knots. Does anyone know if a 100% knot breaks the line not the knot
all or some of the time?
green
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Old 10-19-2008, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: more knots

My last post didn't answer the question of wet verses dry. I use a strain gaged load cell and a digital readout with peak hold. I tested 5 knots at each condition. testing one knot at each condition and then reapeating four more times. (wet,saliva)
dry wet
max min avg max min avg
4 turn improved clinch slow pull 8.0 6.5 7.2 8.0 5.3 6.7
4 turn improved clinch fast jerk 6.6 5.3 5.9 7.3 5.1 6.3
7 turn clinch slow pull 5.7 4.3 4.9 4.9 4.2 4.5
7 turn clinch fast jerk 5.4 5.2 5.3 6.1 4.8 5.3
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Old 10-19-2008, 03:58 PM
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Default Re: more knots

Sorry about the alignment. 6 lb XL 5 pull avg
4 turn improved clinch slow pull dry_____8.0max 6.5min 7.2avg
4 turn improved clinch slow pull wet_____8.0max 5.3min 6.7avg
4 turn improved clinch fast jerk dry_____6.6max 5.3min 5.9avg
4 turn improved clinch fast jerk wet_____7.3max 5.1min 6.3avg
7 turn clinch slow pull dry_____________5.7max 4.3min 4.9avg
7 turn clinch slow pull wet_____________4.9max 4.2min 4.5avg
7 turn clinch fast jerk dry______________5.4max 5.2min 5.3avg
7 turn clinch fast jerk wet______________6.1max 4.8min 5.3avg
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Old 10-19-2008, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: more knots

This is interesting data, Green. It seems to support the idea that a slow pull is better to tie a knot in general and that moisture will reduce heat build-up in case you're in too much of a hurry to get a fish on and decide to pull too quickly, which I find myself doing from time to time. I've always wondered about knot strength in terms of turns to strength ratio, because I was told "Not so many turns" by the man that introduced me to fly fishing, and your data seems to support that idea as well, given that a 4 turn improved clinch wet, dry, fast, or slow holds better than any 7 turn clinch. But then again, the strength may be in the knot design and not number of turns here, right? In the end, it does seem that you won't want to use that Improved clinch, because it may just be too strong for your tippet knot as you previously mentioned. I use it all the time though, because I find that the tippit knot I use, which I tie with a Tie Fast Knot Tying Tool, is plenty strong.
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Old 10-20-2008, 07:06 AM
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Default Re: more knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose View Post
. I've always wondered about knot strength in terms of turns to strength ratio, because I was told "Not so many turns" by the man that introduced me to fly fishing, and your data seems to support that idea as well, given that a 4 turn improved clinch wet, dry, fast, or slow holds better than any 7 turn clinch. But then again, the strength may be in the knot design and not number of turns here, right? .
Knot strength is all about 'slippage'
Any knot that slips, breaks
For a regular clinch knot, the number of turns you make depends on the diameter and stiffness of the material. It might take as many as 7, or it might be as few as 3.
It's what ever it takes to get the knot to seat correctly and not slip.
With the improved clinch, once you make the 'improvement', the more turns you have made, the harder it is for the knot to draw tight.

It's been said that you should always use the knots that you have most confidence in. In other words, if you tie a knot well, that's the one you should use. A poorly tied high percentage knot will not perform as well as a well tied lower percentage knot
I've never liked the 'improved clinch' myself, because it doesn't always seat right.
I'm a fan of the regular clinch because I let the material tell me how many turns to take and for me it always draws up tight.

Mr Green,
I'm always on the look out for a new knot
I sat here for 20 minutes the other day with a spool of mono trying to tie your 'Green's loop"
I didn't get it
I'm not sure 'overhand loop' means the same to me as it does to you.
Could you describe your loop knot again?
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:03 AM
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Default Re: more knots

one thing that sticks in my mind is something that i read a number of years ago and that was prestretching a leader with some stress close but not exceeding the breaking strength (i think it was pertaining to the slim beauty knotted tarpon leader as a replacement for the bimini twist standard knots for the class tippets)

it said that the prestretched leaders surpassed the unstretched variety

it would be interesting to see some pull tests on this theory
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Old 10-20-2008, 03:26 PM
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Default Re: more knots

Overhand knot is probably wrong. The first step is the same as a nonslip loop
green
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Old 10-20-2008, 04:03 PM
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Default Re: more knots

I apologize. I need to read my posts before I post. I forgot to poke the tippet into the hook eye after tying the loop or over hand loop and then pinching the loop and hook.
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