The North American Fly Fishing Forum


Go Back   The North American Fly Fishing Forum > Fly Tyer's Round Table > General Fly Tying Discussions

General Fly Tying Discussions Talk about anything somewhat related to fly tying...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2012, 08:15 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cardiff, UK
Posts: 23
danielp is on a distinguished road
Default River Lure Help

Been chucking a few lures on the rivers lately as they are high and murky so figured it was a reaosnable bet. I really have no idea what I am doing to be honest and after a few casts find myself going back to nymphing as I fell more comfortable with this.

I have knocked up some wooly buggers, snappy poodles and the following two for trying to give this a mroe serious go. What patterns do the streamer/lure guys out there use and how do you fish em?

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Cheers in advance for the advice

Dan
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2012, 08:36 AM
tbblom's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Boulder,CO
Posts: 780
tbblom is a splendid one to beholdtbblom is a splendid one to beholdtbblom is a splendid one to beholdtbblom is a splendid one to beholdtbblom is a splendid one to beholdtbblom is a splendid one to beholdtbblom is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: River Lure Help

Spend some time watching minnows move around. Lots of short jerky little bursts, but then they need to rest.
Similar to your story, I tried streamers a few times without much luck, but also without really sticking to it for long. Then all of the sudden something clicked, and I started catching fish on streamers, a lot. Just keep playing around with getting the streamer deep and working on the 'swing'.
Your patterns look decent, I think they should work (I use the fish skulls alot during higher water).
I think of streamers as good for surveying water. If you come to a good hole, you probably only have a few shots with your streamer before all of the fish have seen it and will ignore it. When I fish streamers I try to cover more water and find new fish.

Sometimes I locate the fish with a streamer, often getting bites but no hookup. After they stop investigating the streamer, I switch to a dry-dropper setup or a nymph rig and cast to the same spots.

When the spring flows push up, little minnows get 'evicted' from their little safe spots in the shallows. Fast water is great for streamers.
If you are not getting bites, maybe add some split shot about a foot ahead of the fly to go deeper.
TB
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:32 AM
MoscaPescador's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 3,727
Blog Entries: 4
MoscaPescador has a reputation beyond reputeMoscaPescador has a reputation beyond reputeMoscaPescador has a reputation beyond reputeMoscaPescador has a reputation beyond reputeMoscaPescador has a reputation beyond reputeMoscaPescador has a reputation beyond reputeMoscaPescador has a reputation beyond reputeMoscaPescador has a reputation beyond reputeMoscaPescador has a reputation beyond reputeMoscaPescador has a reputation beyond reputeMoscaPescador has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: River Lure Help

Add some UV flash to whatever you are tying up.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:37 AM
s fontinalis's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Philadelphia Pa
Posts: 1,702
s fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant future
Send a message via Skype™ to s fontinalis
Default Re: River Lure Help

This thread outta help you out
__________________
Eunan



Addicted To Vise
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:55 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cardiff, UK
Posts: 23
danielp is on a distinguished road
Default Re: River Lure Help

Cheers guys, guess I will have to stick with it. The rivers around here in Wales, UK are all quite high and coloured at the moment so a streamer may be th eonly option for the weekend. Will give it a go but may well just be a day of casting.

S fontinalis, the flies on that thread are beasts, I would do myself an injury trying to lob those with my ****** casting lol. Would you be chucking lfies like that on a sinking line? Imagine with all the rabbit and marabou they are not going to sink too fast in moving water?

And whilst I am asking questions... How deep do you guys try and fish them, will fish move up to them or do you have to get them down to the right level as you would a nymph?

Many thanks
Dan
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:02 AM
s fontinalis's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Philadelphia Pa
Posts: 1,702
s fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant future
Send a message via Skype™ to s fontinalis
Default Re: River Lure Help

Most of the flies i posted on there have lead bodies, so once you get the rabbit/marabou wet prior to chucking them, you should have no problem getting them to sink. You can also throw them with a sink tip or sinking line to get them down, but relatively fast moving water is also shallower than deeper pools, so they're not going too deep and a floater will be fine.
__________________
Eunan



Addicted To Vise

Last edited by s fontinalis; 04-19-2012 at 03:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:16 AM
brookfieldangler's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 989
brookfieldangler is a splendid one to beholdbrookfieldangler is a splendid one to beholdbrookfieldangler is a splendid one to beholdbrookfieldangler is a splendid one to beholdbrookfieldangler is a splendid one to beholdbrookfieldangler is a splendid one to beholdbrookfieldangler is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: River Lure Help

Ever since taking up this whole fly fishing thing, I have struggled to catch fish in rivers that I have always done consistently well in. I started thinking about what lures have that flies don't.

1. Vibration - whether you throw spinners or crankbaits, you give off a ton of vibration. That vibration is something that fish really key in on when they are trying to find food in dirty and murky water. Flies do not have the ability to give that vibration - at least not that I know of.

2. Rattles - Some of my favorite river lures are rattle traps and husky jerks with rattles. That clicking, pinging, or whatever you want to call it sound is like a giant beacon that sparks the curiosity of predator fish. Luckily they make rattles for flies now so fly fisherman can use that to their advantage.

3. Profile - crank baits, spinners, jigs, etc...all have a big profile that helps it be seen in that cloudy river water. Flies that are small and sparse work great in clear water situations, but in dirty river water, you want something that creates a shadow. If a fish is 5' away from a tiny little woolly bugger, he won't be able to spot that thing. Give him a big dark profile and something to look at.
__________________
Less likey, more green dots
BrookFieldAngler.com
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:24 AM
s fontinalis's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Philadelphia Pa
Posts: 1,702
s fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant futures fontinalis has a brilliant future
Send a message via Skype™ to s fontinalis
Default Re: River Lure Help

Movement is the absolute key for big streamer - and with it somes vibration. Articulated flies give you the best of both worlds
__________________
Eunan



Addicted To Vise
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2012, 12:38 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,609
bigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud ofbigjim5589 has much to be proud of
Default Re: River Lure Help

Quote:
Ever since taking up this whole fly fishing thing, I have struggled to catch fish in rivers that I have always done consistently well in. I started thinking about what lures have that flies don't.

1. Vibration - whether you throw spinners or crankbaits, you give off a ton of vibration. That vibration is something that fish really key in on when they are trying to find food in dirty and murky water. Flies do not have the ability to give that vibration - at least not that I know of.

2. Rattles - Some of my favorite river lures are rattle traps and husky jerks with rattles. That clicking, pinging, or whatever you want to call it sound is like a giant beacon that sparks the curiosity of predator fish. Luckily they make rattles for flies now so fly fisherman can use that to their advantage.

3. Profile - crank baits, spinners, jigs, etc...all have a big profile that helps it be seen in that cloudy river water. Flies that are small and sparse work great in clear water situations, but in dirty river water, you want something that creates a shadow. If a fish is 5' away from a tiny little woolly bugger, he won't be able to spot that thing. Give him a big dark profile and something to look at.
I agree with this to an extent. I use this type of lures too & like big, loud flies & use them often. However, IMO it depends on the waters & how much pressure they get. One of the advantages with flies is you can throw something big, without all the bells & whistles that lures have, and in places where the fish see & hear a lot being tossed at them, a quieter approach can at times be more productive.

Quote:
Movement is the absolute key for big streamer - and with it somes vibration. Articulated flies give you the best of both worlds
I agree with this too! But will add that flies that push water, particularly in murky & off-color conditions, will also create a lot of vibrations. Larger flies with large heads, such as those tied with spun deer, or wool can be very advantageous for these conditions. A big fly that pushes a lot of water & has a lot of movement, such as some of the articulating flies, truly are the best of both worlds!

Conventional tackle anglers use various jigs in similar manner, and they're not especially loud, yet they're highly productive. I would expect that those Fish Skulls, would also push some water, and make a racket when bouncing off of rocks or gravel, and being aluminum, more so than a jig with a head made of lead, although I've yet to try the Fish Skulls myself.

Dan, the others have given some excellent advise. Big streamers are something you have to spend time with in order to be consistently successful. A few casts won't do it usually. Deeper areas, undercuts & log jams are great places to use these larger flies, but you have to be patient in getting them down to where they need to be. Being larger, and although heavier, they still won't sink like a weighted nymph, because their greater surface area will cause them to be pushed down stream like a large sail. I usually cast well above a likely holding area & allow the fly to descend to the depths, and swing through, hopefully in front of whatever may be lurking there.

Keep at it, persevere & it will be worth the effort!

Came across this after I posted. You may enjoy it!
__________________
My Blog: http://tidewaterflyblog.blogspot.com

Remember, no one likes to be behind the big truck, but that's better than being under it!

Last edited by bigjim5589; 04-19-2012 at 12:47 PM. Reason: Added info
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2012, 01:08 PM
Hardyreels's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wasilla / Skwentna, Alaska
Posts: 11,548
Blog Entries: 69
Hardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Yahoo to Hardyreels Send a message via Skype™ to Hardyreels
Default Re: River Lure Help

Hi Daniel,

I have taken the time to tell you a little about what I do This is not what I read but what I have learned and whether it will work for everyone or not I can tell you that it works for me.

I have been catching assorted species for a long time using streamer flies. What I can tell you about this fishing technique is that there are different approaches to streamer fishing. One is to lob the biggest thing that you can propel with a fly rod & line out as far as you can and then stand there holding the cork and hoping for the best. Another way is to know where you will most likely find a trout holding itself in the current or near its lair. I have adopted the targeting of holding spots as my avenue to success.

When water conditions are not perfect as those you describe you must rely on what you know from fishing the same river in lower and clear water. When conditions are good you must concentrate on finding fish, not necessarily catching fish but finding them. If all a fellow worries about is catching fish while he has never taken the time to study his home rivers to learn where the fish are at, that persons catch rate will be much lower than the person who has taken time to observe and learn. There have been many days when I caught nothing and I didn't expect to catch anything. What I did on such days was to survey the stream or river I was on in an effort to understand that particular place. During a slow and methodical survey you will discover the fish and you will see where they are holding and where they run to when frightened. These are the 2 most important places for any trout; where they eat & where they take shelter. Once you understand the places and the features of the river that provide those 2 important zones for the fish you know where to attempt to find and catch them in future visits.

When a river rises and becomes murky we as fishermen usually are looking at the surface conditions and are easily disheartened. However, beneath the surface little has changed for the trout. Of course there is limited visibility and an increase in current velocity but other wise it's business as usual for the fish. During these times the characteristics of the surface can change dramatically to our eyes. What was once a current seam may now be a smooth glide while an underwater obstruction such as a boulder or log may now be a bulging swell on that surface. This is where your memory and some common sense come into play if you intend to try to catch fish in less than perfect conditions.

Generally the fish will not wander too far from their shelter spot in heavy water conditions and when they do venture to a feeding lane they will be staying closer to the bottom. In situations of low visibility the bottom strata is an important navigation tool for trout who wish to be able to get back to their shelter quickly. Because of this bottom hugging behavior you must gage your depth of presentation more carefully. You must allow for additional sink time for your fly and subsequently do your casting from a different location than you would in a reduced flow. At this point getting the fly down becomes a bit of a physics exercise and not so much one of needing more weight or larger flies. More weight and bigger flies result in one thing for sure, more snagging of the bottom. If you know where there should be some fish and you position yourself correctly you should be able to gain results with a normal sized fly. You may find that a pattern that provides a sharp contrast will work best in the worst of murky conditions. When the water is really bad I will go to white, black, and a combination of the two in order to try for something that may be spotted by the fish.

I think the most important aspect of streamer fishing is knowing where to present them. I don't believe that size or whether they make noise like a spinning lure are as important as getting the fly in front of the fish. If you want to get good at it you must be willing to sacrifice some time from trying to catch fish and dedicate that time to learning about those fish. Beyond that you should spend some more time learning how to control a submerged fly and to know and understand the sink rate of your flies so you know where they are and what they are doing even in murky waters.

When you combine the various principals of observation and situation control that I have tried to lay out here you then enter into the realm of the fellows who are not surprised when they catch a fish. If you don't take the time to learn and understand what it is that you are really trying to do you will be in the ranks of those who simply throw the biggest thing they have out there and then stand there holding the cork. You may be suprised at how many long time fishermen I've met who are still holding the cork.

Ard
__________________
Anywhere can be the land of great expectations, broken dreams, or paradise found, it's all up to you.

Life On The Line - Alaska Fishing with Ard

The Alaska Fishing & Outdoors Blog;
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mylar Flash Black Fly Tying Material Flashabou Lure Making Fishing Musky Lure Ebay USA Fly Tying Equipment 0 04-08-2012 07:00 PM
Vintage antique heddon lure, punkinseed, punkie, fly rod lure, #1214 Ebay USA Vintage fly rods 0 03-23-2012 08:40 PM
new large wiley lure shirt muskie musky pike lure t shirt fishing shirt Ebay USA Fishing Shirts and Clothing 0 03-13-2012 12:50 AM
Vintage fishing lure/mermaid lure/stream-eze virgin mermaid/mint/in box/flyrod Ebay USA Vintage fly rods 0 11-27-2011 02:50 PM
Vintage tackle box lure antique heddon fly rod river runtie and river runts Ebay USA Vintage fly rods 0 11-04-2011 07:00 PM













All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
2005-2014 The North American Fly Fishing Forum. All rights reserved.