The North American Fly Fishing Forum


Go Back   The North American Fly Fishing Forum > Fly Tyer's Round Table > General Fly Tying Discussions

General Fly Tying Discussions Talk about anything somewhat related to fly tying...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-09-2012, 11:12 AM
webrx's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 1,424
webrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to behold
Default The Treatyse Twelve

A while back I believe it was Pocono who put a thread together on the Macedonia Fly, and through discussion and some local knowledge (Madjoni provided), there was "almost" a consensus on what the actual fly looked like - or could have looked like. I really enjoyed that thread, and it got me looking at some of the old classic flies, and the Treatyse flies.

I have played around a bit with this, and found that Sir Isaac Walton and his co author (Cotton) also had these 12 flies detailed. So, I thought the other day, wouldn't it be fun to do a Treatyse/Walton fly interpretation tie along.

So, here it is, now, let me preface this with a couple things.

1. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to tie these, the descriptions are a bit vague, and in some cases there is a language difference especially with us folks on this side of the pond.

Example: The donne cutte: the body of blacke wull & a yelow lyste after eyther syde: the wynges of the bosarde bounde on with barkyd hempe.

From what I can find, "lyste" means "stripe" and bosarde means buzzard.

2. I am not a historian, nor do I have any degrees, education, etc into how flies were tied way back when. so, I am sure my tying will be influenced by how I tie today, yours might be too, or you might want to research and tie based on what you find.

3. This is not really a tie along, no joining requirement, etc. I just thought if there was any interest in doing this, we could start at the beginning of the Treatyse list, put the description on the thread, add Waltons description as well for the same fly, and then everyone could discuss (if they want) what the description means, or you could just tie a fly or two up that you think fits the description or what youi think the fly might have looked like and we could say, "nice tie" or this is how I interpreted the description, etc...

4. Last, I will be away from my computer and tying desk for a couple weeks mid to end of June, so, I wont be able to follow or post for those two weeks, but, this could still be fun, and all the info (descriptions are at the end of this post.

So, here is the first one, if your interested:

Treatyse:
Marche
The donne flye. the body of the donne woll & the wyngis of the pertryche.

Walton:
March
The Dun Fly: the body of the dun wool and the wings of the partridge

The Frist Fly - my attempt:

Click the image to open in full size.

And the second Fly - the Black Dun Fly:

A nother doone flye. the body of blacke woll: the wynges of the blackyst drake: and the Iay vnder the wynges & vnder the tayle.

Walton: “The second is another Dun-fly: the body of black wool, and the wings made of the black drake's feathers, and of the feathers under his tail.”

Click the image to open in full size.

So, tie something up, post a pic, and let's see what you got.....

d



here is the full list from the treatyse:

March:
The donne flye the body of the donne woll & the wyngis of the pertryche.

A nother doone flye. the body of blacke woll: the wynges of the blackyst drake: and the Iay vnder the wynges & vnder the tayle.

Apryll.
The stone flye. the body of blacke wull: & yelowe vnder the wynge. and vnder the tayle & the wynges of the drake.

In the begynnynge of May a good flye. the body of roddyd wull and lappid abowte wyth blacke sylke: the wynges of the drake & of the redde capons hakyll.

May.
The yelow flye. The body of yelow wull: the wynges of the redde cocke hakyll & of the drake lyttyd yelow.

The blacke louper. the body of blacke wull & lappyd abowte wyth the herle of the pecok tayle: & the wynges of the redde capon wt a blewe heed.

June.
The donne cutte: the body of blacke wull & a yelow lyste after eyther syde: the wynges of the bosarde bounde on wyth barkyd hempe.

The maure flye. the body of doske wull the wynges of the blackest mayle of the wylde drake.

The tandy flye at saynt Wyllyams daye. the body of tandy & wull & the wynges contrary eyther ayenst other of the whitest mayle ofthe wylde drake.

July.
The waspe flye. The body of blacke wull & lappid abowte wt yelow threde: the winges of the bosarde.

The shell flye at saynt Thomas daye. the body of grene wull & lappyd abowt wyth the herle of the pecoks tayle: wynges of the bosarde.

August.
The drake flye. the body of blacke wull & lappyd abowte wyth blacke sylke: wynges of the mayle of the blacke drake wyth a blacke heed,



Here are Walton's descriptions of the flies:
Walton:
“The first is the Dun-fly, in March: the body is made of dun wool, the wings of the partridge's feathers.”


“The second is another Dun-fly: the body of black wool, and the wings made of the black drake's feathers, and of the feathers under his tail.”

“The third is the Stone-fly, in April: body is made of black wool, made yellow under the wings, and under the tail, and so made with wings of the drake.”

“The fourth is the Ruddy-fly, in the beginning of May: the body made of red wool wrapt about with black silk, and the feathers are the wings of the drake; with the feathers of a red capon also, which hang dangling on his sides next to the tail.”

May
“The fifth is the yellow or greenish in May likewise: the body made of yellow wool, and the wings made of the cock's hackle or tail.”

“The sixth is the Black-fly, in May also: the body made of black wool, and lapped about with the herle of a peacock's tail; the wings are made of the wings of a brown capon with his blue feathers in his head.”

“The seventh is the Sad-yellow-fly in June: the body is made of black wool, with a yellow list on either side, and the wings taken off the wings of a buzzard, bound with black braked hemp.”

“The eighth is the Moorish-fly: made with the body of duskish wool, and the wings made with the blackish mail of the drake.”

“The ninth is the Tawny-fly, good until the middle of June: the body of tawny wool, the wings made contrary one against the other, made of the whitish mail of the wild-drake.”

“The tenth is the Wasp-fly, in July: the body made of black wool, lapped about with yellow silk; the wings made of the feathers of the drake, or of the buzzard.”

“The eleventh is the Shell-fly, good in mid-July: the body made of greenish wool, lapped about with the herle of a peacock's tail, and the wings made of the wings of the buzzard.”

“The twelfth is the dark Drake-fly, good in August: the body made with black wool, lapped about with black silk; his wings are made with the mail of the black-drake, with a black head.”


d
__________________
ex·pe·ri·ence noun \ik-ˈspir-ē-ən(t)s\

1. the fact or state of having been affected by or gained knowledge through direct observation or participation

2. that thing you get just moments after you needed it.

Last edited by webrx; 06-09-2012 at 03:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-09-2012, 03:06 PM
Hardyreels's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wasilla / Skwentna, Alaska
Posts: 11,694
Blog Entries: 70
Hardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond reputeHardyreels has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Yahoo to Hardyreels Send a message via Skype™ to Hardyreels
Default Re: The Treatyse Twelve

Hi Dave,

This is a great idea but with the salmon showing in decent numbers at this time I'll have to pass. All you members in the lower 48 should get on board with this because the flies will all catch trout for you. Who knows you may find a new / 'old pattern' that will be your go to fly.

Ard
__________________
Anywhere can be the land of great expectations, broken dreams, or paradise found, it's all up to you.

Life On The Line - Alaska Fishing with Ard

The Alaska Fishing & Outdoors Blog;
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06-09-2012, 10:13 PM
la_jolla1's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 394
la_jolla1 is a glorious beacon of lightla_jolla1 is a glorious beacon of lightla_jolla1 is a glorious beacon of lightla_jolla1 is a glorious beacon of lightla_jolla1 is a glorious beacon of lightla_jolla1 is a glorious beacon of light
Default Re: The Treatyse Twelve

Charles Cotton in fact described 23 flies according to JN Watson's Angling with the fly: Angler-authors of Derbyshire and Staffordshire. Watson, in fact, does translate the month-by-month fly descriptions into a modern English that we can understand, with dressings for all 23 flies. The text is detailed and takes about 7 pages of a quarto-sized book

Both Walton and Cotton fished the River Dove, and Cotton built a fishing house in Beresford Dale in 1674, with the initials of Walton and Cotton entwined as a cypher set in the keystone of the arch. Richard Ward has photographs in his blog of the house as it is this year.

Dry Fly 'Expert': Piscatoribus Sacrum

His Derbyshire flybox has an SBS for a couple of old Cotton flies.

Dry Fly 'Expert': Fly Box

Listed flies from the month by month show a wonderful understanding of the entomology:

Great Dun (March brown)
Little dun (red spinner)
Whitish dun (Pale watery)
Thorn tree fly (Hawthorn)
Blue Dun (Large Dark Olive)
Little black gnat
Bright Brown (a cinnamon caddis)
Violet fly (Iron blue dun)
Whirling dun (Red/rusty spinner)
Yellow dun
Horse-flesh fly or bluebottle
Peacock fly (Iron Blue)
Dun cut (caddis)
Cow lady (Marlow Buzz)
Cow turd fly (cow dung)
Green drake
Camlet fly or Alder fly
Owl fly (moth)
Barm fly (a yellow caddis)
Little flesh fly (housefly)
Brown gnat (needle fly)
Orange fly (soldier palmer i.e. beetle style)
Blue back dun (another Iron Blue pattern)

If you want the original dressings - I would suggest you drop a note to Richard Ward through his blog.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2012, 12:30 AM
webrx's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 1,424
webrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: The Treatyse Twelve

Thanks La Jolla,

It is my understanding (based on what I can find so far on the net - which may or may not be factual because we all know that everything you read on the net has to be true right?) that Cotton described recipes for over 60 flies (I have a listing of 65 of them I have found so far), and Cotton added these recipes to the later versions (I believe it was the 4th edition) of the Compleat Angler. He did give more detailed recipes for some of the original 12, but not all of them from what I can find.

Maybe if there is any interest shown for tying and posting pics of the 12 listed (I think it is fun and a bit challenging to try to tie them based only on the Treatyse or Walton descriptions), we can go into Cotton's 60 plus somewhere down the road.

Another interesting tidbit I came accross was that Cotton and Walton wrote fly recipes because they found that many flies - supposedly the same pattern - were tied differently from shop to shop, and sometimes even within the same shop from month to month.

These two apparently agreed to detail the tying of specific patterns, so there would be continuity in these patterns when you went to buy one.

Again, may or may not be true, but kind of cool if these guys were the patriarch's of standardizing flies.

A couple ingrediants that I got a kick out of - from Cotton's recipes

Wasp Fly
Body was Dark brown dubbin or black cats tail fur.

Red Brown:
Black cur fur over-dyed to make it red-brown dubbed on red silk

looks like Cotton used both Dog and Cat fur in a couple of his ties.

d
__________________
ex·pe·ri·ence noun \ik-ˈspir-ē-ən(t)s\

1. the fact or state of having been affected by or gained knowledge through direct observation or participation

2. that thing you get just moments after you needed it.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2012, 01:07 AM
la_jolla1's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 394
la_jolla1 is a glorious beacon of lightla_jolla1 is a glorious beacon of lightla_jolla1 is a glorious beacon of lightla_jolla1 is a glorious beacon of lightla_jolla1 is a glorious beacon of lightla_jolla1 is a glorious beacon of light
Default Re: The Treatyse Twelve

I think the first thing is to be clear about is mayfly versus sedge/caddis, and whether the hackle is a palmer or more spider-like. The original materials are pretty amusing.

Enjoy the journey!
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2012, 07:54 AM
webrx's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 1,424
webrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to beholdwebrx is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: The Treatyse Twelve

Thanks, you too, I hope you and others will journey along as well. You do bring up a really good point though, as most of the flies do not say palmer or spider or whether the wing just ties on top. There is also very little info regarding how long the wing is, or is it a single wing, tied with an uplift or down on the back, if it is tied back to back or front to front. This lack of info leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

Dave
__________________
ex·pe·ri·ence noun \ik-ˈspir-ē-ən(t)s\

1. the fact or state of having been affected by or gained knowledge through direct observation or participation

2. that thing you get just moments after you needed it.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TWELVE (12) 6-7" METZ Saddle NATURAL DUN Hair Extensions Fly Tying Crafting Ebay USA Fly Tying Equipment 0 11-07-2011 09:20 AM
TWELVE (12) 6-7" METZ Saddle NATURAL DUN Hair Extensions Fly Tying Crafting Ebay USA Fly Tying Equipment 0 10-31-2011 08:40 AM
Twelve MORE handmade/hand-tied fishing flies Ebay USA Fishing Flies 0 09-08-2011 03:50 PM
Twelve (12) of my own HANDMADE/HAND-TIED FISHING FLIES Ebay USA Fishing Flies 0 09-08-2011 01:50 PM
Lot of twelve assorted fly fishing flies Ebay USA Fishing Flies 0 09-01-2011 08:00 PM













All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
2005-2014 The North American Fly Fishing Forum. All rights reserved.