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Old 01-04-2013, 08:35 PM
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Default Re: Material ethics

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Originally Posted by bigjim5589 View Post
It could also be argued that synthetics, which are primarily derived from oil products, could actually be a serious problem. I'm sure you've seen the news & the devastation caused by the off shore BP oil rig spill a few years ago. Synthetics do not readily decompose, and may last for more years than we'll be alive.
Flourocarbon is a good exaple. It does not break down in the environment. It lasts a seriously long time. Mono lasts a while too, but not like Flourocarbon does. That's the only one that gives me any worry. As for the oil, there is a natural bacteria that eats oil. Lives in the ocean and evolved to eat it because the ocean floor leaks oil worse than a bag of french fries. Almost all of the oil in the ocean would be there if we were not on the planet. I would not worry about oil based products in a fly.

On a side note, those tar balls from oil in the ocean, Native Americans were using them to haft arrowheads to shafts long before Columbus got his sea legs.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:18 AM
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Default Re: Material ethics

Re: Temple Dogs, etc.

In China, they eat dogs, and especially in winter, because they believe that it is something healthy to fend off the cold and sickness.

If the family dog bites someone, by evening, it will be gone and given to the neighbor as a gift dinner or something like that.

I like using the "common household items" as substitutes when I can, and I don't have a cow about using lead on flies, because I don't think there's enough to harm. I suppose I could shift to alternative if persuaded, but I pretty much go along with others about the to each his own.

I'm really a pansy about baby harp seals and all that, but I am also a realist about a certain kind of animal rights "activism" that creeps into sports.
Basically, a lot of those "activist" idea are drawn from "Buddhism". That's where Animal Rights Activists get their basic philosophy. Ordinary people get sucked into it because they aren't critical thinkers. Even fishermen and hunters get sucked into a lot of it by vague terminology, like use of the word "respect".

Realistically, "respect" has vague meanings, but it can go so far as to mean "fall down and worship," "light incense and candles," "pray" and just about anything else you can think of. Those are are silly, in the cultural sense, for North Americans.

There is no such thing as a law that says I must "respect" something (We respect "rights" of others, but it is just a synonym for "obey the law"; but sportsmen honestly feel that they should "respect" what they hunt, and thus they end up getting used as pawns in the Animal Rights Activism, because their terminology agrees with the language of Animal Rights Activists. I may "catch & release" or keep and eat, but that has nothing to do with "worshipping" or "respecting" the creature.

Fishermen get caught up in vague sentiments, and the most ardent advocates of Fishing will insist that they "respect" and demand that others "respect" fish, game and so forth.
Nice guys, but very confusing.

Once the vague terminology is thrown out by Sportsmen, the "ethical" comments begin to get more reasonable and practical.
There's a big difference between sentimental terms like "respect" and more practical terms like "preserving natural resources".




Ultimately, it becomes very confusing in the light of modern Scientific Knowledge, because when you think of it, there is nothing in the Scientific Theory of Natural Selection (Darwin's "Survival---of--the--Fittest") which says that only one species in the world should be "ethical" and that allows all other animal species to be "unethical" and "disrespecting" of life, but at the same time, people as a species are to be charged with being "unethical".

There is a strong need for sportsmen to move away from vague sentimental language, and to avoid what philosopher's term "The Naturalistic Fallacy" which is getting some kind of a Moral or Ethical conclusion, from some basic fact, such as a Scientific Fact (an "is"). We don't get an "ought" or a "should" from an "is".
That's The Naturalistic Fallacy.

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Old 01-05-2013, 12:59 PM
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Default Re: Material ethics

I've had dogs a lot of my life. Some of them I miss as much as I would a relative when they died. The one before my present dog, Speedy I miss more than I will some of my relatives when they go. What I am going to say next is not a vague sentiment. How anyone could eat an animal as smart, loyal and loves us like Dogs do is beyond me. I put it in the same list as cannabalism.
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:29 PM
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Default Re: Material ethics

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I've had dogs a lot of my life. Some of them I miss as much as I would a relative when they died. The one before my present dog, Speedy I miss more than I will some of my relatives when they go. What I am going to say next is not a vague sentiment. How anyone could eat an animal as smart, loyal and loves us like Dogs do is beyond me. I put it in the same list as cannabalism.
You feel strongly about dogs, that is great Dan. I love dogs as well. So you can relate your strong sentiment and conviction toward a certain animal to the same sentiments that other cultures have toward certain animals. In India for example, cows are sacred. Eating a cow would be worse than cannibalism. We are all different. I don't think it's fair to judge other cultures based on OUR cultural norms.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Material ethics

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Eating a cow would be worse than cannibalism.
Yah, but cows are dumber than a sack of bricks. Dogs are not. Dogs love us. Cows will kick your brains in and think NOTHING of it. They might love those giant fart factories, and so do I. Preferably well done. Comparing a Dog to a cow is like comparing Einstien to Snookie. Actually that's to close a comparison.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:53 AM
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Default Re: Material ethics

Medium-rare for me, please.
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:11 AM
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Default Re: Material ethics

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Originally Posted by Diver Dan View Post
I've had dogs a lot of my life. Some of them I miss as much as I would a relative when they died. The one before my present dog, Speedy I miss more than I will some of my relatives when they go. What I am going to say next is not a vague sentiment. How anyone could eat an animal as smart, loyal and loves us like Dogs do is beyond me. I put it in the same list as cannabalism.
Me too. I've gotten over the passing of people, but when comes to several dogs, my heart aches even today for each of them, and I can hardly bare to even remember them because it hurts so bad.

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Old 01-06-2013, 09:52 AM
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Default Re: Material ethics

Quote:
Flourocarbon is a good exaple. It does not break down in the environment. It lasts a seriously long time. Mono lasts a while too, but not like Flourocarbon does. That's the only one that gives me any worry. As for the oil, there is a natural bacteria that eats oil. Lives in the ocean and evolved to eat it because the ocean floor leaks oil worse than a bag of french fries. Almost all of the oil in the ocean would be there if we were not on the planet. I would not worry about oil based products in a fly.

On a side note, those tar balls from oil in the ocean, Native Americans were using them to haft arrowheads to shafts long before Columbus got his sea legs.
Dan, I agree with you. Oil is a natural resource. My point was the problems caused by man, in our attempts to get it & once we do, the products produced from it are not as environmentally friendly as the natural furs, feathers & hairs we use.

I don't worry about using such products, but there may come a time, if us humans stay on the course of destroying this world for profits, that reverting back to using other resources, like fur, will be necessary. Hard to predict the future, but anything can happen.

As I mentioned, I've spent a great deal of time hunting & trapping. I do "respect" what this earth provides, and understand there are limits to everything around us. I don't like seeing anything wasted.

Getting back to the original post, if it's already procured, use it, or keep it for historical value, but don't throw it away & waste it.
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Old 01-06-2013, 10:12 AM
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Default Re: Material ethics

I still have dreams where my old chocolate lab from 20 years ago is hanging out w/ me...no he doesent talk or pass on any great revelation...he just does what he used to do...sit or walk next to me...

as to how this thread got started...if I thought I heard it all then...now I am for sure more enlightened...unless someone starts selling fur or feathers from endangered critters recently killed just for body parts, this is moot...

or maybe there will be a "spin off" new reality show where folks start hiding away duck and deer stuff...for the impending moratorium imposed by a totalitarian dictator that sees the clear and present danger fly tying with anything but mannade fibers causes the society at large...

maybe in the future Ranger Rick from the green proliteriate army(thats GPA for short) will be waiting for us in the cheesman canyon parking lot after chasing a hatch to inspect our fly boxs to make sure that we dont have any "un approved " materials( and you know they have special technology now supported by a huge government grant to detect real animal parts from satelites now)...Im pretty slick...I will hid my stuff in a water proof air tight cannister deep in the rocks that have high lead content to beat that tech!! ...and we can have secret meetings at undisclosed places w/ other anglers that we dont even know there real names and celebrate our old love for elk hair caddis...(I guess thats kind of like what we do here??)

how about we just go back to tying flies...and enjoying the peace and solitude fly fishing lured us into a long (or short) time ago...

just one more reason for me to go think up a new pattern, dig into my cache of "stuff", tie up a doozie and dream of catching some fish!
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