The North American Fly Fishing Forum


Go Back   The North American Fly Fishing Forum > Fly Tyer's Round Table > General Fly Tying Discussions

General Fly Tying Discussions Talk about anything somewhat related to fly tying...

Like Tree27Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2013, 03:13 AM
madjoni's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Montenegro
Posts: 1,089
madjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud of
Send a message via Skype™ to madjoni
Default Re: bead substitute

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmie View Post
Four or five lead wire wraps tucked into the beveled back of a brass bead will get the weight close enough to tungsten for half the cost.
Lead wraps under the thorax area with a thread head are OK too. Like RIP said just be missing the shiney of a bead.
I dont agree.Nothing can replace tungsten.
You probably fish on slower running rivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by biog View Post
So my question is this: Will the fish, in my case trout, notice the difference between a few wire wraps at the head of a #20+ nymph and a tungsten bead?
(I am thinking of #20, 22 zebra midges, Higa's SOS etc.)

One last question: Can fish tell the difference between gold beads and silver ones or are these colors simply for the eye of the tier?

TIA
For flies that small you can use wire.And if you need shiny head in general flat tinsel can do the work.

And trout can tell difference between gold beads and silver ones.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2013, 11:10 AM
itchmesir's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Driftless/MRV
Posts: 2,023
itchmesir has much to be proud ofitchmesir has much to be proud ofitchmesir has much to be proud ofitchmesir has much to be proud ofitchmesir has much to be proud ofitchmesir has much to be proud ofitchmesir has much to be proud ofitchmesir has much to be proud of
Default Re: bead substitute

Quote:
Originally Posted by ia_trouter View Post
As already stated, a cheap brass bead and a few wraps of lead and it will be very close to the same as a tungsten bead. Allen beads are cheap and tend to go on sale frequently.
You can't change the physical abilities of a metal just by adding some lead wraps behind it. Tungsten is still more dense than lead or brass. It's going to sink faster.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2013, 01:01 PM
flytire's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Norwich, CT
Posts: 775
flytire is a splendid one to beholdflytire is a splendid one to beholdflytire is a splendid one to beholdflytire is a splendid one to beholdflytire is a splendid one to beholdflytire is a splendid one to beholdflytire is a splendid one to beholdflytire is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: bead substitute

If you add enough lead wraps and a brass bead to EQUAL the weight of one tungsten bead, wouldn't they sink at the same rate?
__________________
Poor quality materials are destined to discourage beginner tiers and cause greater expense when the time comes to replace them.

YOUR way is not the ONLY way when tying flies!

Fly tyers can be masters of making things complicated!

You're only limited by lack of imagination. Be creative, experiment.

http://flytyingnewandold.blogspot.com/
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2013, 01:05 PM
itchmesir's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Driftless/MRV
Posts: 2,023
itchmesir has much to be proud ofitchmesir has much to be proud ofitchmesir has much to be proud ofitchmesir has much to be proud ofitchmesir has much to be proud ofitchmesir has much to be proud ofitchmesir has much to be proud ofitchmesir has much to be proud of
Default Re: bead substitute

No. It's not just the weight that allows something to sink. It's also it's density. It would be along the lines of thinking a 1# piece of foam would sink as fast as a 1# rock. The rock is denser than the foam. Therefor it sinks faster.
craigthor likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2013, 03:36 PM
ia_trouter's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Eastern Iowa, Quad Cities
Posts: 1,886
ia_trouter is a splendid one to beholdia_trouter is a splendid one to beholdia_trouter is a splendid one to beholdia_trouter is a splendid one to beholdia_trouter is a splendid one to beholdia_trouter is a splendid one to beholdia_trouter is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: bead substitute

Quote:
Originally Posted by flytire View Post
If you add enough lead wraps and a brass bead to EQUAL the weight of one tungsten bead, wouldn't they sink at the same rate?
Not in real fast water. In the water I normally fish what you describe will still drop like a rock though.
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2013, 05:00 PM
madjoni's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Montenegro
Posts: 1,089
madjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud of
Send a message via Skype™ to madjoni
Default Re: bead substitute

Quote:
Originally Posted by flytire View Post
If you add enough lead wraps and a brass bead to EQUAL the weight of one tungsten bead, wouldn't they sink at the same rate?
Theoretically yes.Same weight will sink at same rate.Gravity.
But,if you want to achieve that good old psychics(Fluid dynamics.) says that object,in our case fly ,needs to be same shape and size.
With lead wire you simply cant do it because if you want to compensate the weight of tungsten with lead wire you will lose the shape of fly,no doubt!

For really fast waters,sometimes I need tungsten plus full lead body,plus slick fly with not much materials that can trap air or put any resistants on way down....
I do not wrap lead wire,but cast lead on the hook shank.In many times even this is not heavy enough and that is to much work on fly you can lose in few cast so usually I just put two tungsten beads ...

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2013, 06:32 PM
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,319
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: bead substitute

As usual there are several issues. In my opinion, the correct answer depends on the question you ask.

The first issue is sink rate. Water is 700 times as dense as air. Therefore sink rate is not determined only by mass density (specific gravity), that is how heavy an object is relative to how much volume it displaces. Objects of higher specific gravity of the same shape will sink faster.

Here are the specific gravities of some metals.

Tungsten 19.0
Lead 11.342
Molybdenum 10.2
Bismuth 9.781
Copper 8.89
Nickel 8.85
Cobalt 8.71
Iron 7.87
Tin 7.29
Zinc 7.14

The second issue is shape which determines drag. A fly that is fuzzy will sink slower than a fly that is streamlined when they are of equal mass density. That is why Czech nymphs are streamlined and slim. The generally do not have beads but they are slim and heavy for their size, so they sink quickly. They have less drag, and drag is important wince water is 700 times as dense a air.

Once a fly gets down, another factor takes over and that is the behavior of this heavy fly and compared to the drift of a natural. A fly that is much heavier than the natural nymph CANNOT drift like a natural nymph.

Take a look at this video at 1 min 10 seconds. There is a drifting stone fly nymph and imagine a heavy bead headed stone fly pattern. It cannot possibly act like the natural.

"The nymph is a weak swimmer and when subjected to the current. it become a weightless and utterly helpless creature."


There are several concepts that determine the likely hood of catching a fish with nymphs and what bead heads flies can and cannot do.

First, the fly has to be at the level of the fish to catch them. This means within 1 foot of the river bottom (the feeding level of the fish).

The next two important concepts are Effective Drift Length (EDL) and Natural Drift (ND).

When fishing with or without a strike indicator, for any given cast, the fastest sinking fly will get to the bottom fastest and therefore will have the longest EDL at the level of the feeding fish for any given cast.

However, a bead head fly does not drift like a natural nymph which is neutrally buoyant and weightless(see video). An unweighted nymph actually drifts more naturally (ND).

So a bead head drops like a rock but also drifts like a rock.

I prefer to use unweighted nymphs and add weight to the leader/tippet. When fishing water of varying depth and speed, one should change weighted flies. Few fly fishers actually do this when fishing weighted flies. If they do add more weight, they will add split shot to the leader system.

If I have to adjust by adding split shot for various water types, it is easer to use unweighted flies which will drift more naturally and change the amount of lead I use. It is easier to add or remove lead than to change flies. You get a system that presents a more naturally drifting fly with a EDL equal to a bead head nymph.

Bead head nymphs do catch fish BUT they do so in rougher water where the naturals gets tossed about and the bouncing of the bead head on the bottom is difficult to tell from the natural. In my experience, bead heads perform poorly in slower waters. In these waters the bead head should be lead down stream as in euronymphing.

When the nymphs are suspended by a strike indicator, the level of fly and the speed of the fly is a function of the level set by the strike indicator and the speed of the strike indicator. The fly position and drift lane is controlled by the strike indicator. In this case the bead head and non weighted nymph fished with split shot function very similarly.
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

Last edited by silver creek; 12-25-2013 at 06:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2013, 06:47 PM
madjoni's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Montenegro
Posts: 1,089
madjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud ofmadjoni has much to be proud of
Send a message via Skype™ to madjoni
Default Re: bead substitute

Well said Silver and very true.
But,there is another side of fishing and those are rules in some countries.
It is illegal to ad any extra weight like split shots in some lands,and on competitions...not to mention strike indicators.Many fishermen consider that like cheating or fishing with float....
dean_mt likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2013, 11:32 PM
dean_mt's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Western Montana
Posts: 3,152
dean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: bead substitute

Where you been Madjoni? I haven't seen you post in some time. Good to see you back, I trust you've been tying flies!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 12-26-2013, 10:14 AM
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,319
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: bead substitute

Quote:
Originally Posted by madjoni View Post
.
...there is another side of fishing and those are rules in some countries.
It is illegal to ad any extra weight like split shots in some lands,and on competitions...not to mention strike indicators.
Exactly correct and that is why bead heads were first used in Europe as well and using sighters for strike indicators.

Where added weights and traditional strike indicators are legal, my belief is that adding weight directly to the leader is more effective. Since changing split shots is easier than having to change to flies of different weights, the fly fisher is more likely to compensate for different water types.

Secondly, the fly tier need not worry about using materials that are "buggy" because they will slow the sink rate of the fly. The slim smooth traditional Czech nymph is an adaptation to the rules that do not allow added weight. Where those rules do not apply, one is free to use whatever fly and weighting system they want.

A fly's primary purpose is to act naturally. When a fly's purpose becomes to sink as fast as possible, it cannot act naturally. A fly that must serve two contradicting purposes cannot do either one well.
madjoni and fly_guy12955 like this.
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Micro Fibbet Substitute lthrnk03 General Fly Tying Discussions 25 09-24-2013 06:09 PM
Cheap backing or substitute flymoron General Discussion 36 07-25-2013 02:13 PM
Hareline Scudback substitute silver creek General Fly Tying Discussions 4 05-08-2013 02:37 PM
substitute for dubbing barham General Fly Tying Discussions 29 05-05-2011 09:06 AM
Flexament thinner substitute? JoJer Flies 9 12-18-2009 11:59 AM













All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
2005-2014 The North American Fly Fishing Forum. All rights reserved.