New to fly tying and questions.

[eagle24]

I recently started tying flies. I fly fish for anything that is fun to catch and release on a river or creek. I started out tying some Clouser Minnows for bass and stripe. Now I am experimenting with some different wet flies for Bluegill. I found a website with some good looking fly patterns for panfish and would like to tie a few of them.

My questions are (1) How often do you substitute materials from what the fly recipe calls for? (2) Is there a good resource for learning what feathers will work for different applications?

My biggest problem right now is a lack of understanding needed to purchase materials for the flies I want to tie.

 

[onemississipp]

I would say that is a common problem... If you start in the stickies.. Just above... There is some great information... Google understanding hackle.. And definitely check out the sticky on dubbing techniques...


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---------- Post added at 12:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------

No pattern is set in stone, in my opinion, the Tyer at the time used what he had and had the knowledge to use it.


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[eagle24]

I would say that is a common problem... If you start in the stickies.. Just above... There is some great information... Google understanding hackle.. And definitely check out the sticky on dubbing techniques...


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---------- Post added at 12:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------

No pattern is set in stone, in my opinion, the Tyer at the time used what he had and had the knowledge to use it.


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Thanks! I kind of figured substituting materials was not uncommon. The problem for a new tyer is knowing what will work well as a substitute. It's a challenge in itself to select and use the correct part of the feather IF I happen to have the right feather. I have been reading everything I can find including a lot from this forum.

 

[onemississipp]

I understand completely!


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---------- Post added at 12:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------

Especially if you are not a cold water fisherman..then tying books are frustrating..

Best advice I can give it to pick a couple of the patterns you like.. And order just supplies on list to start... If you can find a couple of the patterns that use some of the same materials then do that..


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---------- Post added at 12:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------

Or better yet.. Pick a pattern post it here then ask specific questions


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[silver creek]

I recently started tying flies. I fly fish for anything that is fun to catch and release on a river or creek. I started out tying some Clouser Minnows for bass and stripe. Now I am experimenting with some different wet flies for Bluegill. I found a website with some good looking fly patterns for panfish and would like to tie a few of them.

My questions are (1) How often do you substitute materials from what the fly recipe calls for? (2) Is there a good resource for learning what feathers will work for different applications?

My biggest problem right now is a lack of understanding needed to purchase materials for the flies I want to tie.

Substitution is difficult for a newbie because you have to know the properties of the material you are substituting for and the properties of the material you are using as a substitute. Otherwise you end up with a different fly. The fly may work but it will not be the equivalent fly.

Also it matters whether the material is a key material for the fly or is not every important.

For example if you substitute a different brand of hook that is the same type as the pattern calls for, you end up with the same fly.

If you substitute deer hair for elk hair on an elk hair caddis, you get the same fly. HOWEVER, if you substitute a stiff yarn for the elk air, you get a different fly. It may work, but it is not and elk hair caddis since the materials you used does not taper and is not hollow.

So what you substitute must have the same properties as the original. It must be the same color, the same texture, etc. If it has flash, the substitution must have flash. If it a streamer material, it must act the same way in the water when retrieved - it must give the appearance of the same bulk and action.

So substitution when done correctly results in substantially the same fly. When done incorrectly it ends up with a different fly.

Having made the distinction on substitutions, since bluegills are not very selective, there a reasonable chance even a different fly will succeed.

 

[eagle24]

Dustin,
I actually am fishing some tailwaters for trout and smallmouth, I just started out tying some streamers and wet flies that I know will work on the creeks around the house. It seems to me that the warm water fly tying and fishing is much less complicated.

Silver,
You put into words EXACTLY what I was trying to say and have learned over the past few weeks. A month ago, I thought how a fly looked was 90% of the important characteristics of the particular fly. Beyond that, I only knew that dry flies floated and wet flies sank. When I started reading and learning, I quickly realized that there was much more to the materials used on a particular fly than just appearance. I am intrigued by how complex fly fishing is, but not frustrated. I never considered things like the speed of the water, sink rates of wet flies, different means of getting flies to the proper depth, etc.

 

[onemississipp]

You, Sir are on your way! Plenty of help here...


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[trs]

Welcome to the addiction, This is a great place for questions and advice. Ive found that bluegills are my best friends with respect to flytying, no matter how bad I do, they reward my efforts.

 

[JoJer]

I substitute all the time. I'm not embarrassed to say it's because I'm frugal to use the non-pejorative. It's easy to end up with a life time supply of a material you'll never use again. Need some yellow synthetic yarn? Know how many old style hoppers a skein will make?
Also, my penny-pincher side gets a little satisfaction every time I find a less expensive sub. There probably are some versions of flies I've tied with substituted materials that don't fish the same as the original recipes, but I think I have a pretty good handle on the properties on materials that I've handled and decided not to buy, or how a particular pattern is supposed to act in or on the water.
Other times, I can tell from a finished fly that the sub was good in theory, but just ain't gonna hack it in the real world, or it's appearance is even too yuck for me.
Bottom line: Tying should be enjoyable, for YOU. If the fish like it too, you win twice.

 

[ia_trouter]

I enjoy tying them as the fly creator intended when I can, but when you are starting out that can be difficult. I was most concerned with just learning the basic tying skills at first. Panfish and bass are a great way for new tyer to start. Get the fly approximately where it needs to be in the water column. Over time you'll find your favorite colors for your water. Natural colors can be very effective, but I can hardly lose at my local lake with chartreuse, yellow and legs. A bright fly presented properly gets it done most days.

Proper fly tying seems to have a much bigger effect on my trout catch rate. I recommend you have a few flies on hand that are known to be effective on your water for the current season. It makes it easier to guage the effectiveness of your own ties. I tied plenty of trout flies that don't produce but I learned from the process.

As already stated. Just try to keep it fun for YOU.

 

[weiliwen]

Ia Trouter is on to something; if you are a trout fisher, pick a handful of flies you want to tie, and get the proper materials. Then start tying and learning the methods. I think the ability to substitute materials will naturally develop from there, as you learn how different materials, whether they be feathers, fur, or synthetics, work on a fly.

 

[flytire]

if fly tyers didnt substitute we would still be tying with red wool and wax colored hackles (as in the first recorded fly)

They fasten red (crimson red) wool around a hook, and fix onto the wool two feathers which grow under a cock’s wattles, and which in colour are like wax.

 

[onemississipp]

Substitution or use of new materials is all part of progress..

 

[eagle24]

Thanks for all the input guys! Hope to try a few of my flies on the Flint River tomorrow afternoon!

 

[onemississipp]

Good luck! Don't forget to report back!

 

[btwom67]

Substitution is difficult for a newbie because you have to know the properties of the material you are substituting for and the properties of the material you are using as a substitute. Otherwise you end up with a different fly. The fly may work but it will not be the equivalent fly.

Also it matters whether the material is a key material for the fly or is not every important.

For example if you substitute a different brand of hook that is the same type as the pattern calls for, you end up with the same fly.

If you substitute deer hair for elk hair on an elk hair caddis, you get the same fly. HOWEVER, if you substitute a stiff yarn for the elk air, you get a different fly. It may work, but it is not and elk hair caddis since the materials you used does not taper and is not hollow.

So what you substitute must have the same properties as the original. It must be the same color, the same texture, etc. If it has flash, the substitution must have flash. If it a streamer material, it must act the same way in the water when retrieved - it must give the appearance of the same bulk and action.

So substitution when done correctly results in substantially the same fly. When done incorrectly it ends up with a different fly.

Having made the distinction on substitutions, since bluegills are not very selective, there a reasonable chance even a different fly will succeed.

I completely agree with Silver Creek about learning the properties of the original materials-unless you understand them, substitutions will be difficult. There are no real rules in fly tying however. If you want an exact copy of the fly you are copying, buy the prescribed material from a reputable dealer who stocks and knows fly tying materials. If you are willing to go off script try different things....there are some things that are simple to substitute-for example most dubbing can be somewhat interchangeable, so color and texture are important but the actual material not so much, hackle color is totally irrelevant...get the sizing correct and it will work the color may be slightly or very off but you can easily use a blue dun hackle as a black substitute, you can substitute flashabou for some of the spooled up tinsel materials -its a lot cheaper-you get way more material in a hank of flashabou than you get in a spool of tinsel. Most of the Cabelas and BPS are fairly limited in their fly shop experience and their materials selection so I'd advise staying away. If need be - talk to a mail order/web house to get your stuff. Feather Craft in St. Louis is a great place to talk to people who know what you need and you can trust them to send the right stuff. There is a ridiculous amount of info on the web
After a long time and many hundreds of flys tied, you will start to learn materials. Being able to select quality materials for the job you need them to do is a huge component of being a competent fly tier.
check out this website...Jack Gartside was an original and innovative tyer...poke through his site there are some great stories about how he would make do...He passed a few years back but was one of the greats.
Jack Gartside's Home Page: fly fishing articles, books, flies, and prints