New to spey casting...advice on Sage TCX--7126-4

[squidman]

AKA 'Death Star', picked it up for half price here in Norway for ocean trout fishing mainly. Sage TCX -7126-4 12'6....

So the thing is, I realize this is halfway between a proper spey-rod (15' or more) and a single, but the dude in the shop as I'm a complete newb to two hand rods, gave me a scandinavian shooting tip or whatever it's called. So yes it worked brilliantly overhand casting scandi-style, but no way in hell was I able to learn some spey casting!

Basically a 12-14m Guideline shooting intermediate sink/28g...which of course is fine casting overhead...but I maintain now fri"# way can you cast that properly in a single or double spey! I was pretty sure (as I'm desperately keen to learn the spey casts!) that you should have NO MORE than 1-1.5x your rod length of shooting head on the water, (i.e. not quite the 12m from the guy in the shop!), and about the same in leader.

Any thoughts? Have to be honest, got a bit cranky with my local fly-fishing guys there (I have taught spey-casting for 15 years, and yes it is perfectly fine to cast 12m of shooting head from a 12' rod, BS BS!!)...

Frankly I don't see how a 30+' flyine + 12' leader and ocean-trout fly is going to be cast spey (single or double) from a 12' rod! But then am again a complete newb! Just barely getting to grips with spey casting on my sage #6 zxl.....moral support appreciated here! :army:

 

[winxp_man]

Grab a Skagit Flight 550 for this rod and a floating mow tip. Here is a video that will help a little and there are many others on youtube.

Skagit Casting - Defined and Simplifyed - YouTube

 

[jaybo41]

Skagit casting in Scandinavia? Wouldn't that be kind of...ummmm blasphemous?

 

[jaybo41]

Ok so last night I was a little punchy and that was the first thing to come to mind. Today's a new day and I'm feeling a little more on my game, so here's some information for you to chew on.

I'll preface my comments with: I'm still learning. I'm hopeful others more knowledgable will chime in. If he doesn't respond to the post, you may consider sending fredaevans a PM, he's probably forgot more than I know about spey casting.

Congratulations on your rod purchase, by all accounts I've read that's one fine two hander you acquired! If I remember correctly, between the head and leader, the total should be about 3 times the length of your rod. The good news with that rod is since it's widely considered the darling of the lineup, there are many documented reviews/recommendations of it as to how to best fish it.

This is worth a read.

http://www.rioproducts.com/skin/summit/pdf/Understanding Spey lines 2013.pdf

I enjoy Simon's teaching style both in books and video. This is a great book.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Spey-Casting-2nd-Simon-Gawesworth/dp/0811702685/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1378475121&sr=1-1&keywords=simon+gawesworth"]Spey Casting, 2nd Edition: Simon Gawesworth: 9780811702683: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZehwaXJ9L.@@AMEPARAM@@51ZehwaXJ9L[/ame]

This video really helped me.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua3JT3gmsjI]Simon Gawesworth at SOR, Spey casting. - YouTube[/ame]

A few other videos to search for, Henrik Mortensen and Göran Andersson, Ed Ward. If you get into Skagit casting, the Skagit Masters 1 video has a really good instructional segment by Ed in it.

Good luck and once again, congrats on adding that fine rod to your arsenal!

 

[Ard]

Hi,

I don't know if you'll come back to read replies but will add what little I may know.

I believe that if you are wanting to execute 'traditional' Spey casts, a long or mid belly line will be much easier for this. The rod length you have is just 6" shorter than the 13' Hardy Marksman that I have been using since June.

I find that for short range casting on narrow channels a simple flip or roll is all that is needed but when the water opens up and you want repeated deliveries of the fly at distances of 50 - 90 feet the short head will not be optimum for this.

The length of the head 36' is about the minimum length you may need for the setting up of traditional casts. Due to the rod lengths (12' 6" - 15') some casts are much easier if you can simply sweep and setup with at least 50' of belly extending from the rod tip. With shorter lengths I have trouble because the entire cast, (the sweep - the anchor - forming of a proper D - etc) all of these become so abbreviated that casting becomes much less graceful.

For over head casts the longer belly also provides some advantage in that you do not need to strip in line to reach the 30' mark before lifting the line into a back cast. I would say that you should seek out some casters who are using long or mid belly lines and learn what and how they are using. If rod length becomes the restricting factor then you may want to bump up to at least a 14' rod. Since I find a 13' very nice on most rivers when matched with a 60' belly, your 12' 6" should work just fine once you zero in on the proper line. As for the fellow teaching Spey casting for 15 years, there is a large gulf between casting and fishing.

Ard

 

[jaybo41]

See there, I knew someone more knowledgable than me would respond! :wavetowel

 

[Ard]

Hi Jason,

I wouldn't go so far as saying I know much but I do know what I see. I am fishing beautifully with the 13 foot Hardy but am using an old SA mid belly on it.

Currently we are under 'Flood' warnings' on many rivers and streams from hear at home all the way to God knows where With another fall trout season at risk I am counting the raindrops here right now. If it were to stop and clear right now it will take 4 - 5 days before the waters are good.

All or most of the silvers are in and by the time the water drops they will all have color.................... The trout are here in number but again, the water must drop before fishing will improve.

 

[squidman]

Back again and thanks for the help from the newb! Weell had to get to grips with scandi style shooting heads, compact rtg heads, skagit style heads, iflight, mow leaders etc etc! Pretty confusing! As far as I'm concerned, they're all dynamic roll casts of the spey variety (skagit being ripping more with heavier shorter leaders, whereas scandi being more of a last minute anchor with a thinner skinnier leader, and switch..well same **** except a 5 weight that you can also chuck overhand etc etc).!!

I think the difference between a single spey and scandi (damn, just using the butt more?) is nebulous, but despite that got a bullocking from the dude that sold me my death star...sic...americans can't cast, chucking a skagit is just bs, not elegant......needless to say I found another shop.

As far as lining...well I just wiped out my credit card and have the following...
Guideline PT Compact RTG 8/9 DH float/hover/s1 478 grain
Guideline PT Compact floating 8/9 10.2m 478 grain
Guideline PT Scandi 7/8 417 Grain F/H/S1
Rio Skagit iFlight Spey 6.7m/ 525grain ..bit of a thug casting! with mow tips...

Am now looking at splicing line of course. But old-skool using loops or heat-source?

Have to say...weeeell back in the old days when I went from a Shimano baitrunner to overhand reels...weelll I thought that was complicated. Then I moved on to the dark side! fly fishing one handed....and now this! They don't exactly make it simple!

Still can't see how switch hasn't caught on in the swamps/mangroves (suggested to my local tackle shop in aus...spey what? even tho the dude is irish! still using single handed 8/9 rods there at 200% usa prices or more...rip-off city)...

Back in Norway for the steelhead/salmon season...yay! :weight_li

---------- Post added at 06:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------

Just an edit;

Can see a use for death star in lakes in Norway (slack is still a problem with me, never did get proper casting lessons), where I just cant get the fly out far enough. Can cast about 70% of my one-handed zxl, my double hauling needs work and there are usually bushes and so on behind me. Having said that, most of the waters here are spectacular as far as scenery goes, but there's a limit to torturing 100g piddlers that I can stomach. Need to head out to Russia or Canada or northern Norway!

Here's a vid of switch casting on a lake...so it is possible...yes I actually fished deschutes once back in the day! Oregon rocks! :sweatingb [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVzSIAmayq4]Lake Fishing with Switch Rods - YouTube[/ame]

 

[runningfish]

It won't be a spey thread without Ard chippin' in.

Congrats on getting your hands on the Death Star, I think I've watched most of the spey casting video on Youtube.
You can get more videos on Vimeo and they are in better quality than the ones on Youtube.

 

[fredaevans]

Back again and thanks for the help from the newb! Weell had to get to grips with scandi style shooting heads, compact rtg heads, skagit style heads, iflight, mow leaders etc etc! Pretty confusing! As far as I'm concerned, they're all dynamic roll casts of the spey variety (skagit being ripping more with heavier shorter leaders, whereas scandi being more of a last minute anchor with a thinner skinnier leader, and switch..well same **** except a 5 weight that you can also chuck overhand etc etc).!!

I think the difference between a single spey and scandi (damn, just using the butt more?) is nebulous, but despite that got a bullocking from the dude that sold me my death star...sic...americans can't cast, chucking a skagit is just bs, not elegant......needless to say I found another shop.

As far as lining...well I just wiped out my credit card and have the following...
Guideline PT Compact RTG 8/9 DH float/hover/s1 478 grain
Guideline PT Compact floating 8/9 10.2m 478 grain
Guideline PT Scandi 7/8 417 Grain F/H/S1
Rio Skagit iFlight Spey 6.7m/ 525grain ..bit of a thug casting! with mow tips...

Am now looking at splicing line of course. But old-skool using loops or heat-source?

Have to say...weeeell back in the old days when I went from a Shimano baitrunner to overhand reels...weelll I thought that was complicated. Then I moved on to the dark side! fly fishing one handed....and now this! They don't exactly make it simple!

Still can't see how switch hasn't caught on in the swamps/mangroves (suggested to my local tackle shop in aus...spey what? even tho the dude is irish! still using single handed 8/9 rods there at 200% usa prices or more...rip-off city)...

Back in Norway for the steelhead/salmon season...yay! :weight_li

---------- Post added at 06:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------

Just an edit;

Can see a use for death star in lakes in Norway (slack is still a problem with me, never did get proper casting lessons), where I just cant get the fly out far enough. Can cast about 70% of my one-handed zxl, my double hauling needs work and there are usually bushes and so on behind me. Having said that, most of the waters here are spectacular as far as scenery goes, but there's a limit to torturing 100g piddlers that I can stomach. Need to head out to Russia or Canada or northern Norway!

Here's a vid of switch casting on a lake...so it is possible...yes I actually fished deschutes once back in the day! Oregon rocks![/url]

Sorry for the VERY late response ... this thread went right under my radar. Good call on the lines, and I hope they're all 'just' heads rather than full lines. That way you can just 'swap out' the business end and get on with gettin on.

Just a couple of comments on 'casting style' for these lines. How you cast (Scandi vs. Skagit vs a full head) is quite different (they have to be) so watch the hand/arm positions in the videos. The first two are 'touch and go' with the anchor; the skagit is a sustained anchor. Read that you let the sink tip SINK! Like really sink, takes a bit of practice as to how much with a given head but the idea of a skagit line is you rip the sink tip out of the water and 'mass in grains' of the short head pops that thing right out of the water. This is why you can use full on sink tips (up to 15 feet) and make them fly ... with a heavy fly (or as we call them a 'feather brick' when wet).

The one thing that's in operation, regardless, is let the rod do the work! It's just a long leaver so putting 'all you've got' into most casts (think real distance) just isn't needed and it can kill a cast faster than anything I know. Light hands on the rod (with 3 and 4's just the finger tips), the lighter the rod the more this becomes necessary.:fishing:

As far as what 'heads' to start with (learning curve) PUT the Skagit/sink tip aside as that's the one rod/line that will cause you frustration before your 'learning curve' moves off of dead zero.

How I 'teach' is with a scandi and just a 9 foot leader and light fly (actually it will just be a bit of yarn, no hook as such) and dial in 'the feel.' Then will come a scandi with a light sinking leader/yarn fly. Then to a longer head, again the short leader, and more 'tweeking' as the timing will change due to the longer head. Now we go to flies, including lightly weighted ones (leave the "dead birds" in your fly box).

Last will be a skagit set up once the first bits are in hand. Why such a short leader (you can purchase them up to 15 foot!) is over 9' you're kidding yourself save for a video presentation vs. actual fishing. The shorter leader will lay out far easier (even with a muffed cast) than the super long ones.

Anyway learning to cast is a progressive learning curve, start with 'easy' and move up from there.

fae

 

[randyflycaster]

With your spey rod and Scandi line I would definitely use a 10' floating polyleader. Attached to the polyleader I'd add anywhere from 6' of mono - for bigger flies, up to size 6 - to 12' of mono for smaller flies.

For now, I'd stay away from casting sinking flies with a Scandi line.

Some casting tips: Scandi lines are prone to blown anchors, so make sure after you execute your lift you still have enough line on the water. If you're standing in waist-deep water you'll end your lift higher than if you're standing knee-deep water.

(I was blowing a lot of anchors until I lowered the height of my lifts.)

I execute my back swing by sweeping the rod tip back in a straight line, then, but before I end my swing, I slightly raise the rod, without changing it's angle. (This upward movement will lift the anchor slightly off the water.) At the end of your back swing take note of where your anchor is pointing, and then make sure you execute your forward cast parallel to and inside of where your anchor is pointing. (If you don't you're fly and line will probably collide.)

Finally, the Scandi forward cast is very short. It's like cracking a whip. I mostly aim slightly upwards.

Randy