Kayak recommendations

[dakotakid]

Rather than take another active thread off on a tangent, I'll start another. I'm in the market for a kayak. The options are amazing and diverse, so I'm looking for experienced guidance. Unless I'm overlooking something, I believe the most important features are:
1) ability to comfortably stand for fly fishing
2) relatively light weight
3) comfortable seat

That said, I also am unclear on the following:
1) length: for example 10 vs 12 foot besides the obvious impact on weight
2) what are the disadvantages of sit-on kayaks

NuCanoe seems like a good option. Is it really as stable as they say when standing to cast?
Native Ultimate Angler makes similar claims for standing stability and is lighter.
Then there is the Freedom Hawk Pathfinder and their so-called patented outrigger system. Probably the most stable, but at what trade off?

I'd like to get feedback (pro and con) if you have experience with any of these or can highly recommend something else.

Thanks

 

[runningfish]

Rather than take another active thread off on a tangent, I'll start another. I'm in the market for a kayak. The options are amazing and diverse, so I'm looking for experienced guidance. Unless I'm overlooking something, I believe the most important features are:
1) ability to comfortably stand for fly fishing
2) relatively light weight
3) comfortable seat

That said, I also am unclear on the following:
1) length: for example 10 vs 12 foot besides the obvious impact on weight
2) what are the disadvantages of sit-on kayaks

NuCanoe seems like a good option. Is it really as stable as they say when standing to cast?
Native Ultimate Angler makes similar claims for standing stability and is lighter.
Then there is the Freedom Hawk Pathfinder and their so-called patented outrigger system. Probably the most stable, but at what trade off?

I'd like to get feedback (pro and con) if you have experience with any of these or can highly recommend something else.

Thanks

I have 2011 model Ocean Kayak Trident 13 which I really like very much.
going straight to your questions, please note that I am not an expert in kayak and just a regular paddler.

1) ability to comfortably stand for fly fishing
I fish standing up most of the time, the only time I am sitting down is when I am paddling to a new spot or to fish a type 5 sinking line and that is sitting on the side of the kayak with feet both in the water.
The T13 is 13'6" Bow to Stern, I can't remember the width. T13 allows me to stand up paddling for sight fishing, cast to the fish, fight the fish, maneuver the kayak back while fighting the fish all while standing up.
2) relatively light weight
Weights about 52lbs empty. I recommend a kayak cart because with all the gears, anchor, fish finder battery, this thing can get much heavier and you don't want to drag it to/from the shore or always having someone else to help you carry it.
3) comfortable seat
I bought a cushion pad from Austinkayak.com it helped my lower back.

1) length: for example 10 vs 12 foot besides the obvious impact on weight
The longer the kayak the better the tracking and the faster, but harder to maneuver. I don't have maneuvering problem with my T13 because I am paddling in big windy reservoirs and lakes. I haven't tried in a river situation.

2) what are the disadvantages of sit-on kayaks
Non kayakers will say SOT is prone to flip over, that is true if you are standing up and you forgot that you are standing up. In most cases you'll be in the water but the kayak is still upright waiting for you. Try this; sit on a kayak and try to rock the kayak from side to side position with your hands only. You'll find it is not easy to flip it, now lean your head and shoulder out and you'll find out it is easier to flip the kayak. My point is you have to be aware of your center gravity and train your body to move base on it.

I can't find the disadvantages of SOT, I find it more advantageous in term of cargo volume, room for your legs and body to move around, you have flexibility to rig and install various Scotty rod holders, fish finder. The heck you can even carry your beach umbrella and six packs of buds for that windless summer day in the middle of the lake. :sorry:

I'll see if I have the time to take picture of my T13.

Have fun, I hope others with more kayaking experience and know how can provide you with more inputs.

Don't forget the life jacket and a good WHISTLE.

 

[ted4887]

If you decide on a Freedom Hawk, check out my classified ad.

The NuCanoe is a nice rig. I had the oportunity to paddle one not long ago and like it. However, there are a few things I didn't care for. Mostly being the ability to transport it on the roof of my Escape. It's a horse of a kayak weighing in somewhere around 80-100lbs (my best guess). It's also ultra wide, so it won't work with any self-loading roof top carriers.

However, it is a very stable rig and is easy to stand in. It's also minimalistic which I also really like. Not many things to snag your fly line around.


I used to own a Native Ultimate. It was a great kayak as well. Although, while a lot of people claim it's easy to stand it, it is definitely the least stable of the three you listed. It can be done, but it's not as comfortable to stand in than the others you listed.

It's a good rig though, and really excels with a rudder in the river. For lakes, there are better rigs I believe.

The Freedom hawk is what I own right now. I've had it out about 5 times, and heres what I can tell you from those. It's stable. As stable as most small boats. It would be nearly impossible to flip it. In fact, I'd be surprised if someone could flip it with the outriggers deployed. I don't think it could be done unless you were really trying.

The boat is susceptible to wind. This can be easily countered with a trolling motor or anchor though since you can stand and fish in a 360* pattern without losing stability. Whereas other boats you're generally limited to 180* at most to keep the kayak stable.
This is a premiere lake rig. It will also handle slower rivers well. While it is great in slower/still water situations, the boat would make me nervous in anything over class 2 rapids. If you're good at reading water you could do it. But the boat doesn't manuever as well as the Native, and could get a little hairy if you got into a tight turning situation.

If you buy a Freedom Hawk, you'll eventually want to put a cheap trolling motor on it. It would really rock if you did that.

The Native, you DEFINITELY want to add the rudder system. Even for stillwater situations.

I know you can add a motor to the NuCanoes, and would be another that you'd likely want to.

All three boats are susceptible to wind. Although, when you learn how to anchor a kayak properly to keep you positioned you will be much happier. That, or add a trolling motor to combat the wind (much better than an anchor).

 

[buddhist_palm]

If you decide on a Freedom Hawk, check out my classified ad.

Road Trip!!!

Fish the whole way up

 

[uppersippi]

I think it depends on the type of water you are predominantly fishing and the distances you are going. Everything is a trade-off. If you intend to paddle upstream or into the wind a few miles to drift back to your launch, that nice to stand in (wide) kayak will give you a work out. I live on the Mississippi and keep my kayak on my shore. I can’t stand in my kayak, but I have no problems paddling upstream a few miles and drifting home as I fish.

Last summer I was fishing 6 nights a week out of my Tarpon 120. I didn’t feel hindered at all by not standing. In fact I think it allowed me to get closer to the smallmouths than I could have standing. I can’t see them, but they can’t see me either. It did take a bit getting used to casting from a sitting position, but it can be done.

I think the major disadvantage of the SOT is that you might get a bit wetter. I think the benefits outweigh this minor inconvenience. The ease of getting in and out will let you stop and wade while doing a drift if you get into fish.

The one thing I quickly learned is while it might be really convenient to have rod holders up front; any line you strip in will quickly become a mess. After my first two outings, I put all the rod holders behind me.

The Tarpon was my first kayak, but I have no plans (yet) for another. Well maybe the Tarpon 140.

Dan

 

[christianfishn]

IMO the ride 135 is extremely versatile. Its extremely stable and designed for standing, paddles well in big an small water, and handles nicely on rivers. If i had to buy a new kayak it would be a ride 135.

 

[jimp]

I have a Ride 115 which is a bit heavy at 80#'s, but very stable, can stand up if you desire with a simple modification of installing an eye bolt and get a dog leash to use as a "pull strap". You can carry a lot of tackle/gear in the Ride, the seat is comfy, coming from someone who has a bad back. If you have a pick up truck, just throw it in the bed, a couple tiedown straps and hit the road. The 115 is not hard to put into my Sport Trac, the 135 might be a bit more but I can't say. I got the 115 because of storage space issues and don't regret it.

The seats are very comfy, I'm good for 3+ hours before I need a back/butt break. Easy to paddle, tracks good. Easy to put accessories on with the trac system.

The longer the yak the easier it will be to paddle in a straighter line, but will be a bit slower due to the length and weight. Some larger yaks are easier to paddle than smaller ones. Rides are made to accommodate a trolling motor if desired and will handle the weight 2/o issue but you lose some storage capacity behind the seat/cockpit area. I've FF several times from my Ride, seated as I have only stood in mine a couple times. You can flip 'em but it is difficult to. Google 'em or check out youtube for some review. GL

 

[raindogt]

I agree with uppersippi---standing up is not as imperative as you might think (not to be rude,but if you can't cast from a sitting position, you need to work on your cast).

To go further with my being disparaging: A kayak with out- riggers, a trolling motor, or a rudder system begins to cease being a kayak. Once you get to those pricepoints, you might as well look into a 'boat'. Also, if you need a trailer to haul the thing around, buy a boat.

The things I love about my kayak (OK trident 11)? The ability to carry it atop my car, the ability to physically carry it a long way to fairly remote areas, and the ability to launch anywhere (no boat ramp necessary). a nice seat is a necessity.

Also, I disagree with jimp: "The longer the yak the easier it will be to paddle in a straighter line, but will be a bit slower due to the length and weight." In reality, a longer yak will be faster than a shorter yak. The longer boat resists the twisting motion inherent with paddling side to side-- tracks better and is faster because the boat goes straight, not in a 'w' pattern across the water.

Just clearing up some misconceptions and giving my two pennies.

 

[dakotakid]

Thanks everyone. Based on your input and additional research, I'm now leaning toward the Jackson Coosa kayak (The Jackson Coosa Kayak is a Great fly Fishing Boat). Appears to be very stable, relatively light weight, good seat (?) and has nice fishing related features.

 

[ted4887]

To go further with my being disparaging: A kayak with out- riggers, a trolling motor, or a rudder system begins to cease being a kayak. Once you get to those pricepoints, you might as well look into a 'boat'. Also, if you need a trailer to haul the thing around, buy a boat.

Raindog, how do outriggers, a trolling motor, or a rudder take away from the kayak actually being a kayak? I can maybe grant you the trolling motor turning it into a "boat", but the other two I will give no ground on.

Standing up in a kayak, while not a necessity to cast, is very nice when you're sight fishing. Perhaps that's not a style of fishing that you do down in KC. I don't know anything about your area or the type of fish you pursue. But up here, when you're fishing clear lakes (15-20' clarity) being able to spot submerged structure or cruising fish can mean the difference between being skunked and putting a few in the boat. But I agree that standing up is not required in all situations.

The rudder part baffles me though. I'm going to make an assumption that you've never used a rudder in a kayak. I might be different in this aspect, but I believe that more time spent with a line in the water, rather than paddling, will generally equate to a better chance at catching fish and in turn, usually leads to a more rewarding day. Shoot, even if you're not fishing, being able to cruise down a river without having to constantly paddle to keep the boat straight is a luxury worth a few hundred bucks to me.

I am guessing that your thoughts on these vary from mine based on the type of water and the type of fishing that you do. That's understandable. But to condemn outriggers or rudders is just strange to me.

---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 PM ----------

Thanks everyone. Based on your input and additional research, I'm now leaning toward the Jackson Coosa kayak (The Jackson Coosa Kayak is a Great fly Fishing Boat). Appears to be very stable, relatively light weight, good seat (?) and has nice fishing related features.

I took a pretty hard look at that boat last spring. It's a VERY nice rig and is definitely worthy of your consideration. Jackson is a very cool company.

 

[raindogt]

I misspoke-- I confused in my mind a rutter system for a (really heavy) pedal system.

Respectfully, ted.... I have to say from your description---"Standing up in a kayak, while not a necessity to cast, is very nice when you're sight fishing.// snip// ...up here, when you're fishing clear lakes (15-20' clarity) being able to spot submerged structure or cruising fish can mean the difference between being skunked and putting a few in the boat."-- IMO, a kayak is the wrong tool for the job. Why not put a 'regular boat' on the water in this case? My father has a really nice skeeter zx bass boat- great for sight fishing and standing and moving about the deck. But you also need a boat ramp to launch it.

My kayak serves purpose on moving water rivers, stream floats as well as still water and I can launch it anywhere in a matter of minutes. I have an aluminum john boat-- but I sent it to our family farm because I don't like having to haul a battery and trolling motor around, I don't care for setting a bunch of things up before I get on the water.

The reality is with out-riggers or a troller or even a rudder system, your 'launchability' is limited-- good luck enjoying the more 'remote' waters with all of that stuff. If all you are going to explore is the lake with ramp access, then by all means get an 110 LB. kayak with pedals and outriggers and back it into the water on it's trailer. I will opt for a more comfortable ride (bass boat, johnboat, etc.) at this point.

My point is: If you need all of that out of a boat-- you probably don't want a kayak. There are better purpose built boats for that.

 

[ted4887]

A rudder weighs about 2 pounds (I might be off by a pound), and definitely does not take away from the "launchability" of the kayak. A rudder is installed onto the boat. It does not need "set up" before launching. It's all of ~12" long anyways. I don't think you quite understand what a kayak rudder is, so i won't push the issue with it.

Why is a kayak the wrong tool for sight fishing? I can put my kayak into any piece of water that any other kayak is used in. Here's an example of why you would want to be able to stand up. Ever fished musky? How about pike? Those fish are known to follow flies all the way to the boat, and stay on them while they're directly under the boat. People tend to use a figure 8 pattern when they have a follow up to the boat. Ever tried doing a proper figure 8 pattern sitting down in a kayak? I know people who can't hardly do a good one standing up, let alone sitting down. Plus, if you're sitting down, there is no way you'll see the fish in the first place. But like I said in my earlier post, I'm sure you're pursuing different species than I am.

And you're right. Many times, there are better boats than my kayak for what I do. However, not many, if any, would never make it into some of the water that I fish for them in. Ever portaged a bass boat? Along with that, not everyone has the garage space or money for a Jon or a full sized bass boat. Many of us want to hang a kayak up in the garage rafters, even if there might be a better boat out there for us. Sometimes there are just other factors that go into the mind of a kayak angler.

My point is: Often times there are people who have different needs from their boats. Not every person that buys a kayak pursues the same fish, nor do they fish the same type of water. The beauty of kayaks is that there are a lot of different options out there, and to demean one style just because it wouldn't work for you seems petty.



P.s. This is a kayak rudder.

 

[cpowell]

Has anyone here tried the Mirage from Hobie? I have wanted this yak for a few years.

A local shop is now carrying these and has a demo. I will give it a try. Hank Parker swears by them.

Mirage Pro Angler 14 : Pro Anglers : Hobie Fishing

 

[dakotakid]

Lots of nice features on the Hobie Mirage, but ruled it out because of the weight.
Fitted hull and fully rigged weights of 110 and 138 lbs respectively is far more than I'm willing to mess with. I'm going to haul my kayak on the roof of my SUV, so low weight is a major consideration.

 

[ted4887]

Has anyone here tried the Mirage from Hobie? I have wanted this yak for a few years.

A local shop is now carrying these and has a demo. I will give it a try. Hank Parker swears by them.

Mirage Pro Angler 14 : Pro Anglers : Hobie Fishing

They're great boats, but definitely one you'd want a trailer or truck bed to haul it with. I had a chance to spend two days paddling one of the Hobies a few years ago and loved it in the lake we were fishing in. So smooth, and easy to handle. One thing to note though is that there is a lot going on right in front of the seat, meaning you'll likely find yourself tangling the fly line up quite a bit. A stripping basket might help but it will still be an issue I think.

The only other bad thing I could possibly say about Hobies is that they're not built to run shallow water or even minor rapids. It's definitely more of a stillwater boat.

The Hobie is definitely on my short list of dream kayaks though.

---------- Post added at 09:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 AM ----------

Lots of nice features on the Hobie Mirage, but ruled it out because of the weight.
Fitted hull and fully rigged weights of 110 and 138 lbs respectively is far more than I'm willing to mess with. I'm going to haul my kayak on the roof of my SUV, so low weight is a major consideration.

Check out the Thule Slipstream 887XT kayak rack if loading will be a challenge for you. I picked one up for my boat and it works wonders. Throw the front end of the boat up on the rack, slide the rest of it up on the rollers, and center the kayak. Only problem is that it's definitely on the upper price end of kayak racks.

 

[raindogt]

OP stated in post #14 "I'm going to haul my kayak on the roof of my SUV, so low weight is a major consideration" 60 Lbs. at most is what he is after. Lifting a 60 Lb. rock above your head is easy-- loading a 60 Lb. 12 foot long hunk of plastic atop a car (worse a taller suv) without scratching the hell out of it is another story....

Argue all you want about my fishing prowess or my knowledge of kayaks, Ted. I'm just trying to give the OP a real look at what a kayak is capable of and not capable of. and the reality of using a kayak as your means to get on the water. I love mine. It is simple, light and manageable and serviceable for what I need.

Is it super comfortable? not really-- although I can spend several hours on it and be fine. Is a nice bass boat more accommodating for a 6 hour outage? certainly!
Can it get into places that other boats can't? absolutely
Is it the absolute best tool for all fishing conditions? of course not. (even if you add a bunch of **** to it-- motor, outriggers, etc.)

You are right-- sometimes, the skin isn't there for a 'boat', sometimes the storage isn't available for a 'boat'. But the fact remains: a kayak is not a suitable substitute for a 'boat'. The OP is trying to find the balance of all of his preferences. I was simply trying to offer some caveats.

for example: Outriggers are a nice way to get tangled... Pike and Musky follow flies all the way to the boat-- how do those arms that stick out several feet from the boat assist in that situation?

A trolling motor attached certainly doesn't help with weight (or price), now does it? Also, yet another thing to tangle on.

Also, suggesting kayaks that are $1200.00 and 70Lbs. and then solving the loading problem by adding another 3 or 4 hundred for a loading system, presuming that he already has a good roof rack (could be another $500.00 if not-- a few hundred for the cross bars at least.), doesn't seem very helpful to me (there goes your argument about the economy of a kayak)-- sounds like you just want to be a gear stud. Also, keep bragging about you ability to figure 8 finger roll your standing line. We would love to hear more. (roll-eyes)

For the record-- I kept things subjective until now. You started with the demeaning talk: "I will give no ground on" "to condemn seems strange" "seems petty" etc. I don't need you to grant me ground, thanks. Jim Morrison said it best people are strange- no need to try and demean me by calling my views strange. Maybe I am petty- but I can reason through a discussion without resorting to petty practices.

I'm done with this-- I hope the OP considers the reality of a kayak and it's capabilities before buying. Just because we can say "that boat is awesome!" doesn't mean that it will be awesome for his needs. Unfortunately I think there will have to be some concessions. The first two criteria are comfy to stand in and light weight. AFAIK, there isn't a boat out there that is both. And short of being a sight fishing hero, as at least one person on this board is, I figured the ability to stand would weigh less on the criteria. What good is a kayak that is great to stand in, but so heavy and cumbersome that you opt to fish without it?

 

[ted4887]

You're right. I'm done. I didn't mean to step on the toes of a kayak guru such as yourself. My sincerest apologies. Hopefully I didn't offend you too much by posting some of my thoughts. It won't happen again though, I promise.

 

[Ard]

Hi Dkid,

I have 3 of these on the short list for use here, check the Mokai out. Mokai That link goes to their home page.

If you want to go against the flow and if it's legal to use motorized craft on your creeks and rivers these things are incredible. The distance they will travel on a very small amount of fuel is huge. I have a friend who uses one and I am sold!

Ard

 

[jimp]

Lots of nice features on the Hobie Mirage, but ruled it out because of the weight.
Fitted hull and fully rigged weights of 110 and 138 lbs respectively is far more than I'm willing to mess with. I'm going to haul my kayak on the roof of my SUV, so low weight is a major consideration.

Check out the Wilderness System Tarpon, comes in short, med and tall I think (3 lengths ?) , and weighs about 50-60#, has a good comfy seat, the slide tracs for mounting accessories, etc.

 

[cpowell]

Hi Dkid,

I have 3 of these on the short list for use here, check the Mokai out. Mokai That link goes to their home page.

If you want to go against the flow and if it's legal to use motorized craft on your creeks and rivers these things are incredible. The distance they will travel on a very small amount of fuel is huge. I have a friend who uses one and I am sold!

Ard

I was going to get a drift boat but now am not so sure... gee thanks Ard. Back to the drawing board.