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Old 07-26-2011, 12:26 AM
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Default Re: AFFTA Joins TU in Opposing Bill that would Trash America's Backcountry

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Originally Posted by fyshstykr View Post
I think the whole point of this legislation is to allow more access to commercial logging and deforestation, gas well drilling, and mtn top strip mining rather than the ability to fight forest fires.[COLOR=Silver]
Where did you get that from? Not one word was ever mentioned anywhere about it. That's a political rather than logical view point. It is based on nothing and is not in any way shape or form mentioned in the legislation. I talked to the original source of the legislation and he comes from a place suffering from a serious political "One to the left syndrome" so I seriously can't imagine where you get that.
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:53 AM
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Default Re: AFFTA Joins TU in Opposing Bill that would Trash America's Backcountry

It's my personal opinion that if you open up motorized access to existing restricted (and future) roads if this legislation is passed, then it will not be long before Industry will be moving in. Logic says that if there is money to be made by exploiting a resource, someone will be trying to get to it.

Now, I've answered your question. Please answer mine.
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Last edited by fysh; 07-26-2011 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:38 AM
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Default Re: AFFTA Joins TU in Opposing Bill that would Trash America's Backcountry

They said it will allow roads in widerness areas coast to coast, and yet the legislation said BLM managed land that is not designated as wilderness and does not the meet the criteria for being wilderness. In other words they are mischaracterizing the bill. Not the first time I said it. It is in the text and should not have needed to be pointed out... repeatedly. Now answer me a question. Do you drive a car? Use Gasoline, any products that were mined? Forest products, oil and oil byproducts like plastic? Put cement over ground that was once wilderness? Do you use electric lights? Have a TV or electronics like a cell phone that use rare earth metals? Even if you were right, and you are not, where should we get this stuff. Stuff you use yet seem to be so paranoid about aquiring? And why do you use it when you hate it so badly? Examine your own actions before you accuse those of others without so much as a whiff of evidence.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:36 AM
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Default Re: AFFTA Joins TU in Opposing Bill that would Trash America's Backcountry

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Originally Posted by Diver Dan View Post
They said it will allow roads in widerness areas coast to coast, and yet the legislation said BLM managed land that is not designated as wilderness and does not the meet the criteria for being wilderness. In other words they are mischaracterizing the bill. Not the first time I said it. It is in the text and should not have needed to be pointed out... repeatedly.
OK, here is the part of the article where your saying TU and AFFTA are "mischaracterizing" the legislation.

Copied and pasted;
The bill, dubbed the Attack on our Sporting Heritage Act (ASH) by Trout Unlimited, would impact about 43 million acres of roadless backcountry from coast to coast, all on public lands within the U.S Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management systems. Inventoried roadless lands provide the best remaining fish and game habitat in the United States, and they’re vital for the persistence of wild and native trout. In the Rocky Mountain West, roadless lands shelter the bulk of the country’s remaining cutthroat trout and bull trout populations. Additionally, the best remaining spawning and rearing habitat for ocean-going steelhead and salmon is in streams flowing through or from the roadless backcountry.

I will admit the language is confusing.

But, what I think they are talking about is the area that Frank made mention of earlier as the "buffer zone" and not the "Protected wilderness areas" themselves.

Another reason I think that's the area their speaking of is because the impacted area as stated above is roughly 43 million acres, and Federally protected wilderness areas in the lower 48 states, Alaska, and Puerto Rico are in excess of 109 million acres.

It sounds like your confused as to the definitions of "roadless backcountry" and "protected wilderness area".

So, in my opinion TU and AFFTA are not "mischaracterizing" anything.
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Last edited by fysh; 07-26-2011 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:56 PM
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Default Re: AFFTA Joins TU in Opposing Bill that would Trash America's Backcountry

They use the word Wilderness several times followed by "Back Country" not Roadless. They are implying that it will destroy wilderness from coast to coast. I am confused about nothing. This is a typical ploy used gain support. State things in a way that can mislead people into the belief that things are worse than they really are. As for the fire thing being a red herring...do you remember where I said the fire got to within 300 yards of my brothers house? He was lucky and his home did not burn down. Many of his neighbors were not so lucky. Ask them if it's a red herring.

I'll give you another typical example of the misleading tactics used by these kind of writers. The humane Society of the United States has a commercial showing taking abused animals to a shelter. They talk about all the rescues they do and how they get them food and care. How many shelters do they have you ask? ZERO. They dump animals at the real Humane Societies around the country while filming the rescue. The actual Human Society that ends up with the animals is in no way affiliated with them, and in fact is being hurt in fund raising by this essentially a professional fund raising group. What happens to the animals you ask? Most animal shelters can't afford to keep the animals they dump on them and are put to sleep.

This is why I say they are mischaracterizing the bill. They intentionally mislead the reader by repeating the word wilderness, and when talking about the roadless area call it back country implying it is wilderness. It is a tactic that seems to work on some.
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:41 PM
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Default Re: AFFTA Joins TU in Opposing Bill that would Trash America's Backcountry

Interesting, I thought the powers that be said we are not allowed to have any political discussions here on NAFFF. I guess its different if the powers that be initiate it. If you think there is just a hint of sarcasm in the above comment I apparently didn't make it obvious enough.

I see the potential for both good and bad in this and I think both Dan and John are correct on both the positives and potential even likely negatives of allowing roads to be built in these "buffer zones." I personally believe that some language must be added to the bill which prevents any roads built on these lands from ever being used to allow access the lands that would be given easier access to from ever being used for any commercial, industrial, or off road recreational vehicle purposes.

We absolutely in my opinion must have land that will forever remain wild and free from being exploited for their natural resources in such a way that destroys the land, plants, takes a way its protection, and food for fish and wildlife. However, I do believe that increased access via roads does not necessarily have to lead to the potential destruction of wilderness. It would be possible to add language to the bill that would prevent that from happening. It would on the positive side give access to these areas to disabled persons and those like myself who have respiratory illnesses that to some degree limit my ability to safely access certain areas alone and in some instances even with the help of others.

Nevertheless, as I believe John touched on our government cannot afford to maintain the roads we have currently. Worse yet within a short period of time if our national leaders cannot get past their partisanship our national government could go into default on our nations debt.

Therefore, in my opinion for any bill to even be considered that will require the spending of additional money at this time and likely for a long time into the future is irresponsibly asinine. For that reason it or any other bill that requires additional funding above what this nation already spends should be shelved until we have solved our current financial crises.
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Last edited by FlyBum; 07-26-2011 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: AFFTA Joins TU in Opposing Bill that would Trash America's Backcountry

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Originally Posted by FlyBum View Post
Interesting, I thought the powers that be said we are not allowed to have any political discussions here on NAFFF. I guess its different if the powers that be initiate it. If you think there is just a hint of sarcasm in the above comment I apparently didn't make it obvious enough.

I see the potential for both good and bad in this and I think both Dan and John are correct on both the positives and potential even likely negatives of allowing roads to be built in these "buffer zones." I personally believe that some language must be added to the bill which prevents any roads built on these lands from ever being used to allow access the lands that would be given easier access to from ever being used for any commercial, industrial, or off road recreational vehicle purposes.

We absolutely in my opinion must have land that will for ever remain wild and free from being exploited for their natural resources in such a way that destroys the land and takes a way its protection or fish and wildlife. However, I do believe that increased access via roads necessarily has to lead to the potential destruction of wilderness. It would be possible to add language to the bill that would prevent that from happening. It would on the positive side give access to these areas to disabled persons and those like myself who have respiratory illnesses that to some degree limit my ability to safely access certain areas alone and in some instances even with the help of others.

Nevertheless, as I believe John touched on our government cannot afford to maintain the roads we have currently. Worse yet within a short period of time if our national leaders cannot get past their partisanship our national government could go into default on our nationals debt.

Therefore, in my opinion for any bill to even be considered that will require the spending of additional money at this time and likely for a long time into the future is irresponsibly asinine. For that reason it any any other bill that requires additional funding above what this nation is already spending should be shelved until we have solved our current debt crises.
I agree with almost everything you said there. First they can't afford to put the roads in in the first place, let alone maintain them so I don't think there ia a major concern for the near future. The debt crisis which is in a reallity a spending crisis is sure to make that time period quite long. As for John's negatives, they are based purely on his opinions. I don't want to use veiled language in a post so I can't say what opinions are like, but everyone has one.
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