The North American Fly Fishing Forum


Go Back   The North American Fly Fishing Forum > News and Announcements > News & articles for discussion

Like Tree25Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2014, 09:15 PM
dean_mt's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Western Montana
Posts: 3,140
dean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

You are over reacting...in a reactionary fashion!

Ducks and geese? Sorry man but the spread of invasive, noxious weeds, plants, organisms, and animals is a function of human (mis)behavior.

Songbirds, raptors, snowbirds, butterflies, salmon, steelhead, i.e. migratory animals have been moving across very different ecosystems forever. And they are not responsible for the spread of knapweed, toadflax, leafy spurge...zebra mussels, watermilfoil, whirling disease or NZ mud snails.

Boats and trailers transfer these plants and mollusks and state agencies have begun mandatory check station inspection stops. I don't think any sensible, responsible outdoors person would object to this minor inconvenience.

Felt soles press into the mud and river bottom and are know to readily absorb, house, and easily transfer spores to wherever they go next. If there is an alternative why would you not use it? We have to begin somewhere and the shoe lace argument is avoidance argument.

We don't use lead based paint anymore or mercury thermometers because we learned that there were alternatives.

When an easy step toward a solution is possible, why not take it?

...

---------- Post added at 07:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:57 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by littledavid123 View Post
I don't support the ban because as South Dakota just ruled, state and federal employees are exempt from the law when perfroming official business. Which means they can tramp up and down the streams all day performing surveys while wearing felt, but we have to risk our necks going without. This tells me it is only a feel good decision and they don't really care.

Dave
It not about "tramping up and down the streams" (tramping is bad no matter whats on your feet!&#128540 but transferring spores and micro organisms between bodies of water. The state fish and game agency that allows felt soles for work can also (and I assume does) require that the gear is properly cleaned.

This is the crux of the issue Dave and why boats have to be stopped and checked. Too many lazy people that so not take the threats seriously so they don't take the time to clean their boat, or trailer, or boots.



...
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2014, 09:25 PM
Senior Member

 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Southeast Idaho
Posts: 4,737
siege has a brilliant futuresiege has a brilliant futuresiege has a brilliant futuresiege has a brilliant futuresiege has a brilliant futuresiege has a brilliant futuresiege has a brilliant futuresiege has a brilliant futuresiege has a brilliant futuresiege has a brilliant futuresiege has a brilliant future
Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

I started out with rubber soled muck boots, then graduated to rubber soled hip boots. My first waders 40 years ago had felts, and I have never gone back to anything else. I believe as the ban becomes more widespread, technology will provide the answer. Money will drive research, and both sides of this discussion will be accommodated.
__________________
You can always tell a fisherman. You just can't tell him much.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2014, 09:39 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 2,421
littledavid123 has a reputation beyond reputelittledavid123 has a reputation beyond reputelittledavid123 has a reputation beyond reputelittledavid123 has a reputation beyond reputelittledavid123 has a reputation beyond reputelittledavid123 has a reputation beyond reputelittledavid123 has a reputation beyond reputelittledavid123 has a reputation beyond reputelittledavid123 has a reputation beyond reputelittledavid123 has a reputation beyond reputelittledavid123 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

They are just as human as we are, meaning just because they are told to do something won't guarantee it will get done. Ban felt for everyone and then we are all on equal footing.

I agree with Siege, technology will provide a solution.

Dave
__________________
“...You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer...” Abraham Lincoln
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2014, 10:08 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Knoxville Tn
Posts: 336
billyspey has a spectacular aura aboutbillyspey has a spectacular aura about
Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

Rubber is not the answer. Tried those by Simms with or without cleats they will get you killed in the rivers I fish .the states that ban felt will they have felt police on the river given out tickets .
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2014, 10:46 PM
waterfordcreek's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Breckenridge Colorado
Posts: 527
waterfordcreek has a spectacular aura aboutwaterfordcreek has a spectacular aura aboutwaterfordcreek has a spectacular aura about
Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

Ha, Yes i was overreacting.

I am with Billyspey...i think we fish some of the same area's.

Guides in the GSMNP will all have to think twice about putting clients in rubber soles in the Smokies. Then again, thats not what this is about.

I have tried non felt in the Smokies and TN tailwaters. Thats NOT going to happen again.

My new home waters of Colorado may be a different story.

Again....isnt rubber porous??? Either way.....You should be doing the right thing when fishing various watersheds. I have a boots and waders specifically for the park waters and another for tailwaters. Either way I still sterilize my set I use for tailwaters.

I do remember seeing an article...I think it was posted here somewhere, that this whole ban is hogwash!!!
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2014, 11:04 PM
mudbug's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,034
mudbug is a splendid one to beholdmudbug is a splendid one to beholdmudbug is a splendid one to beholdmudbug is a splendid one to beholdmudbug is a splendid one to beholdmudbug is a splendid one to beholdmudbug is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

Quote:
Originally Posted by dean_mt View Post
If there is an alternative why would you not use it?

Because in some cases it's not a safe alternative.
mrfzx and fredaevans like this.
__________________
450bushmaster.net

Last edited by mudbug; 01-24-2014 at 09:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2014, 11:13 PM
dean_mt's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Western Montana
Posts: 3,140
dean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond reputedean_mt has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

Quote:
Originally Posted by billyspey View Post
Rubber is not the answer. Tried those by Simms with or without cleats they will get you killed in the rivers I fish .the states that ban felt will they have felt police on the river given out tickets .
Yeah, they are the police that write tickets for annoying and arbitrary laws like fly only regulations, creel limits, etc.

...
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2014, 09:44 AM
fredaevans's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: White City (tad north of Medford) Oar-E-Gone
Posts: 6,118
fredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond reputefredaevans has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

Quote:
Originally Posted by mudbug View Post
Because in some cases it's not a safe alternative.
Some truth to the above and you really see it as you get 'older.' Not a case of being 'feeble' but just not as steady 'on your sticks' as you were 10 or more years before.

fae
__________________
"“Reputation is what the world thinks a man is; character is what he really is.”
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2014, 11:44 AM
Bigfly's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Truckee, CA.
Posts: 1,291
Bigfly has a brilliant futureBigfly has a brilliant futureBigfly has a brilliant futureBigfly has a brilliant futureBigfly has a brilliant futureBigfly has a brilliant futureBigfly has a brilliant futureBigfly has a brilliant futureBigfly has a brilliant futureBigfly has a brilliant futureBigfly has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to Bigfly
Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

Fred, I feel you.....
Fell down three times in a week or so.
Cratered so hard one time I broke a stretch of 4" shore ice.....luckily.
The impact would have been worse, had it not broken.
My strategy is to perfect my falls......
Go with it......
I think maybe a few of you fishers out there might want to try the Patagonia river cleats......

Jim
__________________
"Standing in a stream fishing isn't reality avoidance,
more like a shortcut to reality."

Bigfly
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2014, 12:12 PM
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,311
silver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond reputesilver creek has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

Quote:
Originally Posted by littledavid123 View Post
I don't support the ban because as South Dakota just ruled, state and federal employees are exempt from the law when perfroming official business. Which means they can tramp up and down the streams all day performing surveys while wearing felt, but we have to risk our necks going without. This tells me it is only a feel good decision and they don't really care.

Dave
I agree. My belief is that this is a fairness issue.

Most of you are unaware that in the proposed and passed legislation that I have been able to find, there is an exemption for state and federal employees.

This allows fisheries as well as other personnel to use felt soled waders and boots. It seems to me that if this is important, those who are routinely in the waters and are more likely to be in different watersheds routinely, should be the first to transition to rubber soles. Instead the state exempts their own people while mandating a change for their population.

Notice the nearly identical language in legislation in Montana and Vermont. Montana's is stalled in committee and Vermont's has passed. If the ban is based on science, should it not apply to everyone? This is the kind of legislation that burdens the public, but exempts government which drives me nuts.

In Montana:

"NEW SECTION.**Section 2.**Use of felt-soled boots and waders prohibited.

(1) A person may not use external felt-soled boots or external felt-soled waders in the waters of the state.

(2) The possession of external felt-soled boots or external felt-soled waders on the banks or shores of a stream or lake or in a boat, raft, canoe, or other water vessel is prima facie evidence that the person or persons in whose possession the boots or waders are found were using the boots or waders in the waters of the state.

(3) The provisions of this section do not apply to a state or federal employee or emergency personnel, including fire, law enforcement, and emergency medical technicians, using external felt-soled boots or external felt-soled waders when acting within the scope of duty."

Montana Fly Fishing Report » Felt Ban in Montana, Blog, and Fishing Report - Madison & Missouri Rivers


In Vermont:

"Sec. 1. 10 V.S.A. § 4616 is added to read: § 4616. FELT-SOLED BOOTS AND WADERS; USE PROHIBITED

It is unlawful to use external felt-soled boots or external felt-soled waders in the waters of Vermont, except that a state or federal employee or emergency personnel, including fire, law enforcement, and EMT personnel, may use external felt-soled boots or external felt-soled waders in the discharge of official duties."

http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2010...ssed/H-488.pdf

So the ultimate irony is that a warden can give you a citation for wearing felt boots while wearing felt boots himself. How crazy is that?

My second reason is that Dydimo is the main reason for the felt sole ban. See the article below on by the Center for Aquatic Nuisance Species.

http://stopans.org/Science_of_felt.php

However, it has now been shown that felt boots are NOT causing dydimo blooms.

Max Bothwell, a research scientist for Environment Canada, who wrote an influential article that linked angler's felt soled boots to dydimo spread has now reversed himself and said that anglers are not responsible.

Here is his original article, On the Boots of Fishermen:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wat/wq/stud...ymo-blooms.pdf

He now believes that dydimo has been in North American waters and that it is a change in water chemistry, specifically lower phosphorus levels that has caused dydimo blooms.

Read the article in the current issue of American Angler, July-August, 2013, pp 8-9.

"'I no longer believe the problem is North American streams is the result of it (dydimo) being moved around.' …. Scientists are now convinced that dydimo lives in many streams, but blooms only when the water has far less than the normal amount of phosphorus…… The most damaging dydimo episode in the US seems to have been on Rapid Creek in South Dakota, where a six-mile bloom dramatically impacted a blue ribbon brown trout fishery. In 2007 and 2008, Bothwell and other scientists added phosphorus to sections of Rapid Creek. Sure enough, the dydimo mats shrank"

He published his findings in Freshwater Biology (2012) 57, 641–653 in an article titled:

Didymosphenia geminata growth rates and bloom formation in relation to ambient dissolved phosphorus concentration

"The blooms were present only in rivers where average dissolved P was very low. Didymo in higher nutrient waters had higher cell division rates, shorter stalks, and did not form blooms.

…. the blooms are caused by low nutrients in the overlying water, which promotes excessive stalk production. Subsequent surveys, experiments and observations in New Zealand have all been consistent with low nutrients (specifically low P) driving the blooms."


What causes didymo blooms

I think this recent discovery makes more sense than the old theory that all of a sudden dydimo sprang due to anglers boots when anglers have been using these same rivers for over a century with no dydimo blooms.

What is causing the dydimo blooms, I surmise, is the current trend of reducing phosphorus in detergents and lawn fertilizer. So as we get rid of phosphorus to prevent algae blooms we get dydimo blooms.

Ever wonder why NZ has such a problem with dydimo? They have lots of crystal clear streams and rivers with low phosphorus because there is little run off from agriculture and lawns.

Basic epidemiology 101 states that we cannot stop the spread of what has already spread. How we then prevent disease is to make the target population less receptive to the disease. We allow the addition of some phosphorus into fertilizers in the river drainage of these dydimo affected rivers.

Thirdly, there is no single chemical decontamination method that will kill all invasives WITHOUT damaging the waders and boots. Now that it has been established that felt soles are not responsible for dydimo blooms, the worst invasive is the New Zealand Mud Snails. They are resistant to chemicals and felt is NOT where they hide. They hide IN the boot, under the footbed and any crevice.

A study by the California Department of Fish and Game found hundreds of NZ Mud snails lodged inside the crevices of individual test boots. Over 50% of them were less than 1 mm in diameter. Replacing felt with rubber is not going to stop them.

"The majority of NZMS recovered were associated with wading boots. NZMS were observed on the tongue area of wading boots, associated with the laces or the area of the tongue that was tucked beneath the lacing eyelets. Large numbers of small NZMS were present inside of the boots, having worked down between the boot and the neoprene bootie of the wader. If the boots contained padded insole inserts, NZMS were also found underneath the inserts, associated with sand grains. NZMS were recovered from every treated set of wading gear. Numbers of NZMS per sample ranged from 1 to 227 with a mean of 33 (Appendix 2). Over 50% of NZMS recovered were < 1 mm in size (Table 4)."

http://www.scwa2.com/documents/NZMS/...eport%2003.pdf

Finally, New Zealand has the most rigid laws (The fine for spreading invasives is 5 years in Prison and/or a $100,000.00 fine). Yet this has not stopped the spread of invasives.

We have 300 times the population of New Zealand, small fines and no jail time; and yet there are those that believe that rubber soles will stop the spread of invasives. Clearly that ignores the evidence.
__________________
Regards,

Silver



"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RI bans felt in fresh and SALTWATER! team7x Northeast 3 03-11-2012 04:22 PM
Vermont BANS Felt Soled Wadding Boots Editor News & articles for discussion 46 03-06-2012 02:16 PM
Vermont bans felt NorthCountryWood Northeast 4 07-09-2011 11:47 AM
Felt soled wading boots to be banned Fish Bones General Discussion 0 07-29-2008 06:09 AM













All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
2005-2014 The North American Fly Fishing Forum. All rights reserved.