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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2014, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

I found a scientific study that proved dydimo was present in North America in as early as 1218 AD, in the sediment at the bottom of Naknet Lake dated by a volcanic eruption. So who brought didymo to Alaska well before any Europeans even know it existed?

'We found no statistically significant change in the numerical presence of D. geminata or D. clavaherculis, as a group, in Naknek Lake between the years 1218 and 2003."

Historical abundance and morphology of Didymosphenia species in Naknek Lake...: EBSCOhost
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2014, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
How do you decontaminate between the different watersheds on the same day? Do you take harsh chemicals and washtubs to clean your gear? Unless you do, you are risking being the Typhoid Mary of invasives. Going from one watershed to another on the same day is absolutely the best way to spread invasives.

When I go to Montana, I use a totally different FELT boot that I only use for the Madison River and leave to dry off during the other 11 months in a Montana garage.

Read the most recent science on dydimo. Fishermen are NOT responsible for the dydimo blooms and dydimo is NATIVE to North America. Dydimo has been in Western and Eastern rivers for over 100 years,
Hi Silver,

I just checked this thread and saw your post. We use a wader wash and a brush. We actually don't do it as often as I may have suggested, fish multiple waters in the same day. Many of the waters we fish flow into each other as well.

It's interesting to see the comments about didymo existing, well, long before fly fishermen. In my area, they made felt sound like a horrible thing. I've never taken the time to study the topic. I have tried to follow the rules as I've understood them though.

I guess my perhaps somewhat uneducated comment was meant to say if there is something like switching to a different boot that would help protect our watershed and the fish we all like to chase, I'm comfortable trying to find a way to make it work.

Todd
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2014, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

Todd,

I understand that you are doing what you have been told is the right thing to do. I commend you for that.

I have been in science a long time and when I read something that just does not seem reasonable, I look for another explanation. I have been posting about dydimo for many years, and in all the posts, I have been the sceptic and on the side of those who did not believe that replacing felt soled boots would slow down dydimo or any other invasive.

There are too many ways for invasives to be carried other than in felt and I am not referring to animal vectors of transfer.

As I said before, there is no single chemical that is safe for use on waders and boots that will kill all invasives. That is a big problem and so the most common recommended method is to wash the wading equipment with fresh water. Washing decreases the amount of invasive transfer. But dydimo, new zealand mud snails, and whirling disease myxospores can multiply asexually. Only a single live organism is needed to infect a river system. Clearly, banning felt soled wading boots is a futile effort.

Secondly, it just did not make any sense to me why all of a sudden, dydimo, an organism that had been in North America for centuries, should suddenly go wild. There are two main reasons for the explosion of a population. The first is a change in the organism, and the second is a change in the environment.

Was there a change in the organism itself so that it changed genetically to a more virulent form? Close examination showed that dydimo was the same organism as it was hundreds of years ago.

If it was not a change in the organism, then was there a change in the habitat? We know that dydimo lives in water. They tested the water where dydimo blooms occurred and found that a low concentration of phosphorus caused dydimo to grow filaments and create the mats of vegetation that is "rock snot". Add phosphorus and the blooms disappear.

How about that? The blooms are not caused by evil fly fishers with felt soled boots spreading dydimo. The dydimo was already there waiting for low phosphorus to stimulate it.

Why did the water chemistry change? It changed because phosphates in detergents and in lawn fertilizer began to cause algae blooms in lakes and rivers and so they were phased out. Now we have low phosphate rivers and dydimo blooms instead.

Laws to reduce phosphorus | Washington Department of Ecology

16 states ban phosphate-laden dishwasher soap

Phosphorous Lawn Fertilizer - Ban on Phosphorous Fertilizer in Maryland - The Daily Green
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2014, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

This from Montana FWP does address animal vectors when it come to whirling disease:

"Wildlife can also spread M. cerebralis.
Piscivorous wildlife, including fish, birds and
mammals, which ingest M. cerebralis-infected
fish, can spread the parasite between drainages.
Passage of viable myxospores through the digestive
system of piscivorous birds has been demonstrated
(Taylor and Lott 1978; El-Matbouli
and Hoffmann 1991. Given the rate of passage
through the birdsí digestive system (Brugger
1993; Barrows et al. 1999; Hilton et al. 2000), and wide ranges often overlapping incidences of M.
cerebralis infection (e.g. American white pelicans:
Koel et al. 2006a), it is possible that these
animals can transport M. cerebralis (Taylor and
Lott 1978; Kerans et al. 2007; Arsan and Bartholomew
2008). Piscivorous fish may also transport
the parasite by traveling long distances and passing
viable myxospores in their feces (El-Matbouli
and Hoffmann 1991; Arsan and Bartholomew
2008)."

There is no way I am allowing anyone to wear studs in my raft. It's a recipe for disaster. They also scratch up drift boats and will certainly grind casting stations that are fiberglass.

I don't doubt for a second that of all the gear we wear and use on the rivers on a regular basis felt soles are the most effective vectors for transporting invasive species like whirling disease but there are host of other ways invasive species are transported, felt is most likely just a drop in the bucket.

I don't see a nice tidy solution and I also think banning felt, at least in the west, is going to result in a whole lot more injuries and possibly even some drowning deaths.
I can't even imagine trying to wade the Deschutes, the Ronde and all the other really difficult wading, FAST flowing bedrock rivers in the west with rubber soles. Even adding cleats isn't going to be as safe as felt and felt with cleats.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2014, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbugger View Post
This from Montana FWP does address animal vectors when it come to whirling disease:
The mxospores of WD are extremely resistant to freezing and drying.

A study published by the American Fisheries Symposium has noted that "The (Whirling Disease) myxospores can tolerate freezing at -20 centigrade for at least 3 months and are still viable after the passage through the guts of predators.... There have been reports from Europe of myxospores remaining viable in dry pond beds for 12 years(Bauer 1962)."

http://wildlife.utah.gov/fes/pdf_pubs/2002_06.pdf
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2014, 06:43 PM
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Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

Quote:
Originally Posted by dean_mt View Post
I just bought my first pair of Vibram sole boots and ditched the felts (they wore out). I was skeptical but was assured they are good. And they are! I do believe that a lot of the resistance is simply based on the old notion that felt is the only way to go. The new materials are better and better. Add studs and I don't think felt is any better at all.

And I'm glad to see that NYC has banned felt! What the...?
When did NYC become a state? Did it break away from the union ? What the....?
I think they meant New York State! Haha! No felts for this guy on Madison Ave!
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2014, 08:56 PM
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Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

Interesting reading Silver!

I didn't know science was your background. It doesn't surprise me though. Your level of knowledge and willingness to share it is appreciated.

With my wading gear, what are your recommendations on what steps I/we should be taking and how frequently or are you simply saying the efforts we've been going to are not making enough of a difference (or not the cause)to make it worthwhile?

Todd
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2014, 11:40 PM
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Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

Who ever doesn't support the felt ban needs to take a trip to the South Island, New Zealand, and see the didymo infestations in person. There are entire would-be gold medal fisheries absolutely ruined by the ****.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2014, 10:27 AM
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Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

I switched to rubber here before PA even considered a ban. I knew felt, and I can tell you, rubber is no felt!

I have used studs in various configurations and by several manufacturers. I have yet to find any rubber/felt combination that is anywhere nearly as good as felt soles. I won't switch back to felt, even though I really want to. We have the lovely "rock snot" in creeks here in south central PA where it never was a problem before. I tend to believe that the increase in the average annual water temperature is to blame (i.e. deforestation along the streams) not felt soles.
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Old 01-30-2014, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Seventh US State Bans Felt-Soled Footwear

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Originally Posted by mrfzx View Post
I switched to rubber here before PA even considered a ban. I knew felt, and I can tell you, rubber is no felt!

I have used studs in various configurations and by several manufacturers. I have yet to find any rubber/felt combination that is anywhere nearly as good as felt soles. I won't switch back to felt, even though I really want to. We have the lovely "rock snot" in creeks here in south central PA where it never was a problem before. I tend to believe that the increase in the average annual water temperature is to blame (i.e. deforestation along the streams) not felt soles.
If you haven't already, you should read through some of Silver Creeks posts above. He had some interesting insight to a possible cause.
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