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Old 12-07-2012, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: Interesting idea for you folks who use 'Beads' for 'Bait.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by klunker View Post
I use beads along with yarn eggs, nymphs and streamers for Steelhead and Trout. Beads are just another "fly" at the end of your tippet. They are type of plastic just like EP Fibers, Flastabou, Estaz Chenille and Mcfly Foam along of dozens of other synthetic materials. So I am still "fly-fishing" when using beads.

As far as foul hooking with beads, it happens no more than when fishing with a nymph or a yarn egg or any other fly. I have caught dozens of Steelhead and Trout with beads. It is very rare to catch one with the hook stuck on the outside of the mouth. Its no more "snagging" than using a nymph. The fish actively decides to take the bead.

As for this system. Its just another way to "peg" the bead to the line. I use Jelly cord already cut to size. I produce no scrap or waste. With this system I can see lots of little bits of rubber band being left around the stream. Also more "stuff" is required to haul around while fishing. So to me the "pegging" end of it is not any better but worse than what I do now.

As far as adding feathers and what ever to make a "fly". More stuff to lug around on the river. Feathers, flash and whatever else you need to make a fly. More waste left at the river. Why not make up your fly ahead of time and leave all the waste and tools at home.

Interesting system, but I'll stick to what I do now as I don't see any advantage worth carting all the extra stuff around.
It's bead fishing with a fly rod. If that's your thing and it's legal where you fish,..great. But no need to convince yourself you're fly fishing. If no one sat down at a vice (or simply in hand) and tied it, it's not a fly, plain and simple. It's bead fishing, and that's ok.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:14 PM
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Default Re: Interesting idea for you folks who use 'Beads' for 'Bait.'

Exactly!!! Between Ards answer and BradyB's there's not much more to say in that respect.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:40 PM
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Default Re: Interesting idea for you folks who use 'Beads' for 'Bait.'

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Originally Posted by bradyb View Post
It's bead fishing with a fly rod. If that's your thing and it's legal where you fish,..great. But no need to convince yourself you're fly fishing. If no one sat down at a vice (or simply in hand) and tied it, it's not a fly, plain and simple. It's bead fishing, and that's ok.

Nothing against using 'beads,' but here in Oar-E-Gone they're classified as 'lures,' not flies, in the Game Regs.
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:12 AM
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Default Re: Interesting idea for you folks who use 'Beads' for 'Bait.'

I know the use of beads rubs some of the more "purists" (for lack of better term) the wrong way. I don't mean to offend, but I look at things in a simple logical manner.

If I am using a FLY ROD to cast my FLY LINE and at the end of the leader I tie a nymph I am then FLY FISHING. Or am I just nymph fishing with a fly rod? But you say a nymph is a type of fly.

OK, If I tie on a Popper instead of the Nymph am I now just Popper fishing with a fly rod? or am I still fly fishing? is a popper still a fly? That's a little trickier to answer. The "fly" popper is the same as a popper that a spin fisherman uses on his spinning rod only its usually smaller. Does the size of the popper make it a fly if its too small to cast with a spinning rod? That can't be the case because then all sorts of "lures" that are too small to cast with a spinning rod then become flies. Or is it a fly because it has some hackles tied on the back of it? That can't be. There are all sorts of flies that are made only from foam and rubber bands that look like hoppers, beetles and any sort of bug. Besides that I have fished with poppers that had the hackles come off of them. At that point they would of become something other than a fly. What I don't know or care.

So its obvious that a fly can be made of any number of things besides feathers, hair or fur. Synthetic materials are used in making flies. Does it matter the shape of the synthetic material for it to be a fly? Foam is used in alot of different shapes on many flies. If I take a round "bead" and put it on a hook is it a fly? Getting a little trickier now. How much hair/fur/feathers do I need to add to that bead to make it a fly?

And don't tell me it has to be tied on a hook. That is not the case. Just like the bare hook when using a bead a tube fly uses a bare hook. Maybe tube flies are not really flies but "tubes". But I think all of you will be OK with tubes as real flies. Because the feathers and fur on the tube look more like a "traditional" fly. If that's so then a fly has to look a certain way for you to call it a fly.

So we see that the hook can be bare and still be fly fishing. Unless tubes are not flies.

The description or definition of a fly is very tricky as you can see.


If I have to have a "traditional" fly on the end of the line to be fly fishing is using a bobber on a spinning rod with a fly at the end of the whole thing then fly fishing? Of course not. It's still spin fishing. The Fly on the end of the line is irrelevant to the type of fishing. A fly is nothing more than a devise to attract a fish. Same as a lure or live bait.

So then the Fly at the end of the line does not make it fly fishing or the spin fisherman with the bobber is fly fishing.

So what makes it fly fishing fly fishing?

Simple, using a fly rod to cast fly line is fly fishing. Whether you have a nymph, streamer, tube or even a lowly bead at the end of your line when you use the line to cast your fly/lure your fly fishing. Only a purist would argue that you have to have a fly at the end in addition to the fly rod and fly line then make all sorts of contortions and start playing with semantics to define a fly.

I don't mean to offend but, if your offended maybe your a purist. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't care to pick nits over what a fly is. If you want to say I'm bead fishing with a fly rod that's fine by me. I don't really care what you think, its of no consequence to me. I just want to know are you going to then say anyone fishing with a popper is popper fishing with a fly rod? And what about tube fishing with a fly rod? Why do you feel the need to break it down more rather than just simply calling it all fly fishing? Is it simply because you really don't accept fishing with beads? That's fine too. Just be honest about it. We all don't see things the same way. Do I have to fish to your standards and sensibilities before I am fly fishing? Just curious.

None of this was meant to start a pissing war or get anyone's undies in a knot. I just put this out there to provoke some thought and hopefully some self introspection. To me, I like taking my fly rod out, tying on a bead, a yarn egg, a streamer or maybe even a popper, and splash around some river for a couple of hours. It's all good and it's all fly fishing. Why does it have to be more complicated than that?
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Old 12-08-2012, 02:22 AM
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Default Re: Interesting idea for you folks who use 'Beads' for 'Bait.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by klunker View Post
I know the use of beads rubs some of the more "purists" (for lack of better term) the wrong way. I don't mean to offend, but I look at things in a simple logical manner.

If I am using a FLY ROD to cast my FLY LINE and at the end of the leader I tie a nymph I am then FLY FISHING. Or am I just nymph fishing with a fly rod? But you say a nymph is a type of fly.

OK, If I tie on a Popper instead of the Nymph am I now just Popper fishing with a fly rod? or am I still fly fishing? is a popper still a fly? That's a little trickier to answer. The "fly" popper is the same as a popper that a spin fisherman uses on his spinning rod only its usually smaller. Does the size of the popper make it a fly if its too small to cast with a spinning rod? That can't be the case because then all sorts of "lures" that are too small to cast with a spinning rod then become flies. Or is it a fly because it has some hackles tied on the back of it? That can't be. There are all sorts of flies that are made only from foam and rubber bands that look like hoppers, beetles and any sort of bug. Besides that I have fished with poppers that had the hackles come off of them. At that point they would of become something other than a fly. What I don't know or care.

So its obvious that a fly can be made of any number of things besides feathers, hair or fur. Synthetic materials are used in making flies. Does it matter the shape of the synthetic material for it to be a fly? Foam is used in alot of different shapes on many flies. If I take a round "bead" and put it on a hook is it a fly? Getting a little trickier now. How much hair/fur/feathers do I need to add to that bead to make it a fly?

And don't tell me it has to be tied on a hook. That is not the case. Just like the bare hook when using a bead a tube fly uses a bare hook. Maybe tube flies are not really flies but "tubes". But I think all of you will be OK with tubes as real flies. Because the feathers and fur on the tube look more like a "traditional" fly. If that's so then a fly has to look a certain way for you to call it a fly.

So we see that the hook can be bare and still be fly fishing. Unless tubes are not flies.

The description or definition of a fly is very tricky as you can see.


If I have to have a "traditional" fly on the end of the line to be fly fishing is using a bobber on a spinning rod with a fly at the end of the whole thing then fly fishing? Of course not. It's still spin fishing. The Fly on the end of the line is irrelevant to the type of fishing. A fly is nothing more than a devise to attract a fish. Same as a lure or live bait.

So then the Fly at the end of the line does not make it fly fishing or the spin fisherman with the bobber is fly fishing.

So what makes it fly fishing fly fishing?

Simple, using a fly rod to cast fly line is fly fishing. Whether you have a nymph, streamer, tube or even a lowly bead at the end of your line when you use the line to cast your fly/lure your fly fishing. Only a purist would argue that you have to have a fly at the end in addition to the fly rod and fly line then make all sorts of contortions and start playing with semantics to define a fly.

I don't mean to offend but, if your offended maybe your a purist. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't care to pick nits over what a fly is. If you want to say I'm bead fishing with a fly rod that's fine by me. I don't really care what you think, its of no consequence to me. I just want to know are you going to then say anyone fishing with a popper is popper fishing with a fly rod? And what about tube fishing with a fly rod? Why do you feel the need to break it down more rather than just simply calling it all fly fishing? Is it simply because you really don't accept fishing with beads? That's fine too. Just be honest about it. We all don't see things the same way. Do I have to fish to your standards and sensibilities before I am fly fishing? Just curious.

None of this was meant to start a pissing war or get anyone's undies in a knot. I just put this out there to provoke some thought and hopefully some self introspection. To me, I like taking my fly rod out, tying on a bead, a yarn egg, a streamer or maybe even a popper, and splash around some river for a couple of hours. It's all good and it's all fly fishing. Why does it have to be more complicated than that?
nice rebuttal klunker,
i will say that fly fishing, using standard drys,nymphs and streamers is starting to give way to a whole new genre.
the intro of plastic tying materials(beads, legs, flash) is not only common, but most prevalent in our recent fly designs.
check out the new "michigan meat"
it uses all kinds of stuff
Click the image to open in full size.
i could care less what you have on the end of your line, as long as your a happy fisher
that being said, i have allot of respect for dry fly fisherman, as that to me is the real link to old school fly fishing. streamers being a very close second
like i said before, i respect all fly fishers, and too each his own

casey
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:12 AM
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Default Well, I've done it again haven't I.............

Hi Casey,

I would call your fly a streamer fly regardless of whether you have synthetics or eyes fixed into it. It has all the qualities of a modern streamer fly and is well constructed. My original observations were made in regard to the use of the plastic egg facsimile and somehow became muddled.

My disdain for the facsimile egg is not new, the link here will direct readers to a thread posted on 11/14/2008 and it was the first installment of the 'Fly Fisherman Who Kicked The Hornet's Nest' Tradition vs. Plastic, The Hidden Irony

Actually I didn't see the need for a rebuttal to my comments although I may have expected some unrest in the camp after such bold statements. I do not engage in arguments about politics, race, religion, marriage, divorce, or darn near anything but I do have strong opinions about the 'art' of fly fishing. My views are the result of a life spent fishing and 43 years of using a fly rod and tying flies. Over those years I was inspired and influenced by reading the writings of fishermen; McNally, Wulff, R. Haig Brown, Jennings, Schwiebert, Marinaro, Fox, Bates, Brooks, LaFontaine and on and on.

The most famous era of contention I know of in our sport was that of the Skues vs. Halford debate. Those old fellows may both I believe, raise an eyebrow and perhaps their voices over the facsimile situation and the use of floats that are prevalent today. Now we face the new debate; each side will have its followers but only one will carry the weight and tradition provided by the history and luminaries who also spent their lives to further and preserve the art & craft of fly fishing.

We here on the forum strive to avoid subjects that are controversial and we do a good job of that, however we are a Fly Fishing Forum and I see no wrong in opinions being voiiced regarding the sport and the craft of it. In regard to reading something that you may not be in agreement with; where I grew up the old folks had a saying for when a person speaks their mind in generalities without speaking directly to a particular person. When someone would 'pipe up' and take great offense at what had been said the old timers would reply, "well I guess if the shoe fits, you should wear it". Whenever I give an opinion especially about the use of unconventional (historically speaking) gear or tactics, I speak in broad terms and to no one in particular. Almost always my observations are greeted with rebuttals and accusations of elitism from someone or a group of posters, because the shoe fits. Often someone may become defensive; presenting an argument to proffer their ways and means as justified. The truth is that I give an opinion of personal preference not aimed at anyone. If people feel they are being singled out by the remarks I regret that.

I reviewed my original post and I found that I referred to 'beads and nymph rigs'. I didn't stray into synthetics, poppers, hoppers, beetles and bugs. Of course, tube flies were far from my thoughts, I had a specific focus in the remarks and it seems that every time I say something about this I hit a nerve.

That's just me,

Ard
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:53 AM
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Default Re: Well, I've done it again haven't I.............

I don't need to catch fish that bad to fish a bead from my fly rod.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:24 AM
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Default Re: Interesting idea for you folks who use 'Beads' for 'Bait.'

As with so many other things, "it was just a matter of time."
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:42 AM
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Wink Re: Interesting idea for you folks who use 'Beads' for 'Bait.'

Been interesting following this thread and where its gone. One might say I pulled the lid off of "Pandora's Box." Odd part is (I suspect) each and every State defines 'What is a fly' vs. 'What is a Lure' in the Game Regs. The three I follow (Oregon, Washington and BC) all have such descriptions (and in some cases what constitutes a "conventional" fly rod/line) ... and none are the same!

Close, but no C-Gar. And you toss in the 'special reg' provisions for some rivers (or parts there of like the fly only section of the North Umpqua) and it's really 'Game On.' A simple thing such as the gap of the hook shank to hook point my well be regulated, use of a weighted fly may/may not be allowed in some situations.

End game is READ your Regs; going to a new place. Read up on that specific bit of water. What you think you know may have little to do with what you need to know.

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Old 12-08-2012, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: Interesting idea for you folks who use 'Beads' for 'Bait.'

So I've been fly fishing for only 2 years and I was invited this spring to do a couple day trip to fish the driftless area with a buddy of mine. Never been there and never did this type of fishing for small stream trout before. But The steelhead fishing was slow so what the hell, it might be a fun way to spend a couple of days.

The first day we spent nymphing with indicators and did pretty well. It was early in the season and there was no insect hatches going on. I was familiar with fishing this way as it's the way I was taught to fish for Steelhead. Had a great first day.

The second day we decide to use dry flies even tho there were no bugs in the air it might be fun to give it a shot. So I am at the head of a pool and my buddy is fishing the tail. I notice there is guy up river fishing the next run. Well I caught about 3-4 small browns with this little dry fly that another buddy ties.

This fly is made with deer hair and fiber tail. I know he is very particular about what he uses to tie it, The deer hair has to come from a certain place in the deer and he inspects the hair to be sure it bends just right and what not. And the fiber, its s certain plastic fiber that is lighter than water so it adds to the buoyancy of fly. Not any fiber of the right color will he use. It has to be this particular type of plastic. Anyways, you get the idea. I don't know if any of this really matters but I'll tell you that this buddy only ties and use 2 different flies. He always does really well fishing.

So anyways the guy from upstream come walking down and asks me "what are you using?"

"a small dry fly" I tell him.

He snaps back right away " I can see its a small dry fly, What pattern?"

"I don't know, my buddy ties these.."

And he cuts me off "you don't even know what pattern your using?" I can see he's getting irritated with me at this point. I'm a little dumbfounded. I can't understand what his problem is.

So again I try to explain what the fly is "It's tied with.."

Again he cuts me off " let me see it". What the heck I figure, it's a reasonable request and I don't want to see the guy get any more worked up so I swing the tip of my rod over to him so he can have a look.

He grabs the tippet and looks at the fly for a split second "just as I thought, a Elk Hair Caddis" and he tosses the fly back towards me.

"my buddy doesn't use Elk Hair, he...."

Again with the interruptions " it doesn't matter, it's a *******ization of an Elk Hair Caddis"

I've tried to explain to this guy several times what the fly is but he always interrupts so at this point I was done with him. I turned around and started fishing again. I hear him walk off and fish for a few more drifts. Then I check to be sure he's gone and I turn to my buddy at the tail of the pool.

"did you hear that?"

"yep."

"what was up with that guy?

"fly snob"

"fly snob?, whats a fly snob".

"guy who thinks his way is the only way, looks down at his nose at anybody who doesn't do the same, You'll see more of them when the hatches start, dry flies only, gotta match the hatch, anything else and you might as well be fishing with a worm and bobber as far as he's concerned, gives fly fisherman a bad reputation."

I get it, I've seen this type before in other hobbies. Always has to get his snide little comments in how this is wrong or this isn't correct or he would never do that. Always negative. Nobody ever is as enlightened or as righteous as him. Purist, elitist or just plain snob.

Anyways we fished the rest of the day. Had a great time , the sun was shinning, saw some Bluebirds working on a nest in a hollow willow stump, listen to the turkeys gobbling. Couldn't be much better.

Next day went back to nymphing. Had an equally as great a day. It's all good.
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Last edited by klunker; 12-08-2012 at 12:37 PM. Reason: spell
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