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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2013, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: Bitterroot and the effect of too warm water on Cutthroat

I agree completely, Cochise. When I say that climate change is real and contributing to our problem I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am not attacking anyone personally, and as I tried to explain earlier I do not believe it should have anything to do with politics.

When people get upset and defensive when someone even mentions Climate Change I wonder why. I admit that I am as much of the problem as every other average joe. But I try, I am very water conscious, I recycle stuff, I buy local stuff. I also drive too much in a rig that gets crappy gas mileage. We all do what we can do. But we need governments and corporations to do their parts as well.

As for on the ground, streamside help: all the canopy and green space doesn't do anything when the stream is dry. This past summer the last 2 mile of Lolo Creek where dry. Lolo is a major trib to the lower Bitterroot, which is still running really low.

I am not trying to start any fights here or poke folks. I live 3 miles from the Bitterroot, the topic of the original post, and it is a serious concern of mine.
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Old 11-17-2013, 08:59 PM
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Default Re: Bitterroot and the effect of too warm water on Cutthroat

I forgot to mention the in-stream minimum flows work. Here is a brief explanation of it: http://www.idwr.idaho.gov/waterboard...F_Brochure.pdf

And several entities such as F&G, TU, and others have been working here in Idaho to buy, beg, and borrow water rights that are banked as instream.

If it is approached by the local community, it usually ends up as a win/win situation for both the farms and the streams. Grants have been done that put in fences, off stream watering, and even better irrigation.

Many success stories of how local involvement has saved streams and fish.
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Old 11-17-2013, 10:03 PM
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Default Re: Bitterroot and the effect of too warm water on Cutthroat

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Originally Posted by dean_mt View Post
....When people get upset and defensive when someone even mentions Climate Change I wonder why.
Because the fix is about money, and LOTs of it. If the most negative predictions are half true, a meaningful fix requires a huge change in the entire worlds lifestyle to correct things, and we don't have too many decades to contemplate it. At home, corporations and governments alike. If Ford and GM go totally green and no other manufacturer does, the outcome should be obvious. (Go price an electric car and be mindful the GOV is subsidizing it so it won't cost $100K) Ban burning coal at power plants and you won't like your utility bill much. If the US goes green, while Asia and C.A. decides not too, our economic outcome isn't good. IMO 75%+ of the worlds citizens are worried about todays prosperity, and not much about 50 years from now. The CEOs of the world are paid big money to return money to their stockholders, and saving trout in the Rockies and salmon in Alaska is not a line on the annual report.

Did I mention it's about money? It's about modern lifestyle changes and money period. That is where the politics come in IMO.

Or maybe the planet will just naturally enter a cooler phase and it's all good. There's your debate. Now I'm out of this thread because I'll get myself in trouble if I haven't already.
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:57 AM
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Default Re: Bitterroot and the effect of too warm water on Cutthroat

Good points about the other places in the world not jumping on the band wagon. Sadly, the good ol U S of A is one of the cleaner places.

I spent a portion of four winters in mainland China and to see what life is like there and in other capitols of the world it becomes clear that these countries are so poor and so extremely dirty they're worried much more about food and security than pollution.

As the leaders of China say, bluntly, we can't afford to do this right now, we will get to it later because we have a billion folks to deal with here and they are transitioning...it all takes time.

Shouldn't we care more about these places than our own? The greatest expanses of wilderness in the world in areas where pollution is a secondary concern.

I am afraid if we all do what we can it is erased in one second of polluted living from around the globe. So many of these countries don't have any clue or concern about an epa. Those agencies just don't exist.

So on that note, go catch a trout today...and be happy it has cold clean water to live in for the time being.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: Bitterroot and the effect of too warm water on Cutthroat

Warm water is never a good thing, especially when a majority of the focus on Montana's fish restoration goes towards cutties and bulls. Temps on the Blackfoot are now getting warm enough to levels where bull trout stop feeding entirely. Not good all around.
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Old 11-20-2013, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: Bitterroot and the effect of too warm water on Cutthroat

Interesting thread. I think it's encouraging that instead of merely talking about the need to close the rivers down earlier in the day, we got to talking about the larger issues.

I agree with Dean on this. Not only is there consensus in the scientific community regarding climate change, here in Montana we can see it happening with our own eyes.

I wish we had greater public consensus on the subject, so more could be done in the public arena.

We need to do whatever we can to help with this. Cold water fisheries need cold water.
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Old 11-20-2013, 08:10 AM
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Default Re: Bitterroot and the effect of too warm water on Cutthroat

No doubt in my mind that the climate is changing. No doubt that emissions have something to do with it. No one has any idea how much it has to do with it.

I do know that you don't have to go very far to find empty riverbeds that haven't seen flow for centuries and lakes that have been dry for millenia.

Taking care of the environment shouldn't be done because some scientist may or may not have proof that a bad environment is causing climate change. It should be done because it is the right thing to do. Drive into any American city now and compare the air hanging above it to the air that was there forty years ago. It is totally different, you can see it. We know that emissions can impact climate. The climate here in Missouri was affected by the eruption of Mt. St. Helens years back. Thankfully it was temporary.

Getting a handle on emissions is a great thing for the world. Will killing off the remaining economy here in the U.S. make much impact? Probably not. This problem is global and unfortunately there is a limit to how many out of work people our country can feed. Doubling or tripling the amount of our electric bills for some possible relief (natural gas has negative emissions implications as well as coal) will reach much farther into our lives than the monthly electric bills. It will impact the cost of everything that is made or shipped into this country. Every solution seems to have a domino effect.

As long as competing countries don't have to worry with these issues, we are placing our hope in their future because we will have no hope of our own. Hopefully people will work hard to get most of the big players in the world to adhere to some sense of environmental responsibility. The history of the global harmony leads to a discouraging outlook. We did, however, see an end to the Cold War. There was a time that I never thought I would live to see that.

So that leaves us, as individuals or groups of individuals to do what we can to relieve some of the negative effects of the changes that are going on around us. People need to do what they can to save their rivers and other places that they love and cherish. Unfortunately, despite all our best efforts change will happen anyway and change is not always our friend.

This may be my longest post ever. I hope that it makes a little sense and I don't get kicked off the forum!
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Old 11-20-2013, 11:23 AM
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Default Re: Bitterroot and the effect of too warm water on Cutthroat

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Originally Posted by cochise View Post
As the leaders of China say, bluntly, we can't afford to do this right now, we will get to it later because we have a billion folks to deal with here and they are transitioning...it all takes time.
I don't know when you were there, Cochise, and I have never been there but, it is a myth that China does not care about clean energy. It is also not completely true that converting to clean energy sources is going to ruin our economy (which now mostly based on retail). Here is just one article on the subject from Forbes, hardly some liberal rag, I hope you take the time to read it.
China: The Epicenter Of Clean Energy Investments - Forbes
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Old 11-20-2013, 12:09 PM
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Default Re: Bitterroot and the effect of too warm water on Cutthroat

There are solutions and they don't have to bankrupt the country. They do however require the will of the people.

This is from Wikipedia;

"Renewable energy in the United States accounted for 13.2 percent of the domestically produced electricity in 2012,[1] and 11.2 percent of total energy generation.[2] Renewable energy reached a major milestone in the first quarter of 2011, when it contributed 11.7 percent of total U.S. energy production (2.245 quadrillion BTUs of energy), surpassing energy production from nuclear power (2.125 quadrillion BTUs).[3] 2011 was the first year since 1997 that renewables exceeded nuclear in US total energy production.[4]

Hydroelectric power is currently the largest producer of renewable power in the U.S. It produced around 6.2% of the nation's total electricity in 2010 which was 60.2% of the total renewable power in the U.S.[5] The United States is the fourth largest producer of hydroelectricity in the world after China, Canada and Brazil. The Grand Coulee Dam is the 5th largest hydroelectric power station in the world.

U.S. wind power installed capacity now exceeds 140,000 MW and supplies 4% of the nation's electricity.[6] Texas is firmly established as the leader in wind power development, followed by Iowa and California.[7] Since the U.S. pioneered the technology with Solar One, several solar thermal power stations have also been built. The largest of these solar thermal power stations is the SEGS group of plants in the Mojave Desert with a total generating capacity of 354 MW, making the system the largest solar plant of any kind in the world.[8] The largest photovoltaic power plant in North America is the over 200 MW Agua Caliente Solar Project in Yuma County, Arizona. The Geysers in Northern California is the largest complex of geothermal energy production in the world."


We (USA) are actually making significant inroads into other forms of energy beside fossil fuels. It's been slow going but the change has been noticeable in my lifetime. Other first world countries have been far more proactive.
Again, from Wikipedia;

"Germany's renewable energy sector is among the most innovative and successful worldwide. The share of electricity produced from renewable energy in Germany has increased from 6.3 percent of the national total in 2000 to about 25 percent in the first half of 2012.[1][2] In 2011 20.5% (123.5 TWh) of Germany's electricity supply (603 TWh) was produced from renewable energy sources, more than the 2010 contribution of gas-fired power plants.[3][4]

Siemens chief executive, Peter Löscher believes that Germany’s target of generating 35 per cent of its electricity from renewables by 2020 is achievable – and, most probably, profitable for Europe’s largest engineering company. Nordex, Repower, Fuhrländer and Enercon are wind power companies based in Germany. Solon SE, Q-Cells and Conergy are solar power companies based in Germany, which had held an important share of the world market, but have all had to file for insolvency due to Chinese competition and major cuts in guaranteed feed-in tariffs (Solon: 11/2011, Q-Cells: 4/2012, Conergy: 7/2013). Every third solar panel and every second wind rotor is made in Germany, and German turbines and generators used in hydro energy generation are among the most popular worldwide.[5] In 2010, investments totaling 26 billion euros were made in Germany’s renewable energies sector.

According to official figures, some 370,000 people in Germany were employed in the renewable energy sector in 2010, especially in small and medium sized companies. This is an increase of around 8 percent compared to 2009 (around 339,500 jobs), and well over twice the number of jobs in 2004 (160,500). About two-thirds of these jobs are attributed to the Renewable Energy Sources Act[6][7] Germany has been called "the world's first major renewable energy economy".[8]

In 2012, the use of variable renewable energy is, according to the German newspaper Der Spiegel, causing increasing electricity prices and grid instability induced power outages.[9] However, based on official statistics for the period between 2007 and 2012, electricity prices for industrial consumers in Germany were decreased from €94.6 to €89.5 per MWh.[10]"

I find all this to be fascinating and I think ultimately renewable energy will be the major producer of electricity in the not too distant future. However I think the United States will most likely lag behind other first world nations mostly due to our lack of willingness to use the power of our government to subsidize and force change.

The German model for substantially increasing solar power generation has been interesting and has achieved results. It's an interesting story if anyone thinks they might want to look into it. It is certainly not perfect and how they've gone about it would certainly fly in the face of a lot of political points of view as to what government should and should not be involved in.

And all that being said I think it's too late to really stop human caused global warming/climate change but I do think we can mitigate it's effects to some degree by moving in the direction of consciously trying to get off fossil fuels.
The technology is there and growing year by year.

Also look into what's happening with Tesla. A luxury vehicle but they are really moving and demonstrating just how efficient and fun an electric car can be. Wish I would have bought stock about a year ago, while they are definitely riding a bubble there are a lot of very good reasons to be watching them.
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Old 11-20-2013, 12:21 PM
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Default Re: Bitterroot and the effect of too warm water on Cutthroat

decided to let everyone else hash it out.
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