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Old 10-14-2010, 09:41 AM
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Default Re: Favorite "loop" knot?

Cool knot, but with Mojo...double Surgeon's Loop. Plus easy for me with frozen hands.
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:34 AM
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Default Re: Favorite "loop" knot?

I don't use loops on either crab or shrimp flies except for shrimp flies with the eyes on the point end of the hook. Crabs move is a straight line, though often with abrupt angular changes in straight-line direction, when fleeing. They don't wiggle when swimming.

I've found that shrimp patterns with eyes forward are best fished with long, very slow strips in no current, and simply swept on a tight line in current without strips like fishing wets for salmon on a river. They don't wiggle when swimming either. When alarmed, they jump all over the place, including into the boat - but then, they are moving backwards.

Loop knots I use when fishing streamers, usually for big fish, with 40 lb or bigger shock tippet. Knot strength on them is irrevalent and even at only 60% still usually (or at least often) exceeds the strength of the fly line itself. So I don't think it matters much what loop I use for strength. All of those mentioned work fine.

But because bay grass fouling is often a problem where I fish, I've started using Lefty's loop, but with the tag going through both "eyes" of the partially closed surgeon loop.

It is a real PITA knot to tie because the loop, the tag and the standing line all have to be tightened together. I get the best results with two pair of pliers and a hook ring. But the result is a very slim knot with the tag laying back directly toward the hook eye.

But at least one pair of pliers and a hook ring are necessary anyhow for tying good loops in heavy shock tippet.

Davo, sounds like a "Homer Rhodes" you are describing, but it is not a "half hitch" but an "overhand knot" that you tie around the standing line with the tag at the end.

Cheers,
Jim
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Old 10-14-2010, 12:04 PM
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Default Re: Favorite "loop" knot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kglissmeyer1 View Post
I'm with the concensus for the Orvis No-slip Loop Knot. I've also heard it called the Uni Loop or the Duncan Loop. Here's the link with a tutorial:

Orvis_Knots

I also like to use it for small nymphs, especially anything 18 or smaller on light tippets.

kelly.
I called this the Orvis Knot because I was first shown how to tie it by a guide from the Slate Run Tackle Shop in PA. They are an Orvis dealer and Rich told me it was called the Orvis Knot.

What I have learned over the years is simple. Besides giving the fly a tiny loop for great action I have never had one break before the leader to line connection.

No matter what knot I use (level leader) to connect the leader to my line / butt loop, when I break a rig off it is the whole works that is lost. The knot at the line / leader connection breaks (not the one at the fly) and I lose the entire leader, fly and all.

I don't know of any other in the field test that could be more conclusive when wondering which knot is stronger.
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Old 10-14-2010, 12:12 PM
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Default Re: Favorite "loop" knot?

Davo the knot you described may be a Rapala Knot. A modified No Slip Knot.
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Old 10-14-2010, 02:40 PM
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Default Re: Favorite "loop" knot?

It is interesting how someone takes a standard knot and does something diferent to the tag end and calls it a new name. Some don't even bother to make a change and just renames the knot.

1. The Uni knot is the Duncan Loop with no changes.

2. The Rapala knot is basiclly the No-Slip mono knot with the tag end wrapped.

3. The Orvis Knot is the Figure Eight Knot with the tag end wrapped.

4. The Trilene Knot is a Clinch Knot with two loops through the eye.

5. The Double Palarmar Knot is a Palamar with an extra loop through the over hand knot. (I take credit for this knot)

The most important thing with any knot is how you tighten it. Good knots fail because they slip and they slip because they werent tighten correctly.

Frank
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Old 10-14-2010, 02:58 PM
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Default Re: Favorite "loop" knot?

“I have never had one break” are common themes in these knot discussions; this implies that there is little correlation between lab or pre testing and the real world of in the water fishing. Regarding this discussion, I would take a lesson from the trout fishers; you do want the knot from the tippet to the fly to break before the knot from the tippet to the end of the tapered fly leader. The main reason is to minimize the introduction of mono into the environment or attached to the fishes body. Secondarily, if the tippet is tied long enough you just tie on another fly and you are fishing again in a timely manner in an area that is more likely to have fish. Pretesting your rigs as I previously mentioned is the correct way to achieve this goal.
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Old 10-14-2010, 03:17 PM
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Default Re: Favorite "loop" knot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nedun View Post
“I have never had one break” are common themes in these knot discussions; this implies that there is little correlation between lab or pre testing and the real world of in the water fishing. Regarding this discussion, I would take a lesson from the trout fishers; you do want the knot from the tippet to the fly to break before the knot from the tippet to the end of the tapered fly leader. The main reason is to minimize the introduction of mono into the environment or attached to the fishes body. Secondarily, if the tippet is tied long enough you just tie on another fly and you are fishing again in a timely manner in an area that is more likely to have fish. Pretesting your rigs as I previously mentioned is the correct way to achieve this goal.
One of the first things that an experienced trout fisherman learns when he first starts fishing the salt is that many knots that are suitable in sweet water just don't cut it in the salt.
The very last thing you'd want to do is purposely use a knot that will fail.
Every knot should be as close to 100% as possible.
The only exception is if your tippet is stronger than your backing. Even then you still use the best knots that you know and then perhaps tie an overhand knot in your tippet to weaken it.
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Old 10-14-2010, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: Favorite "loop" knot?

Thanks for all the input. I'll try the different knots to see which seems more natural and easy for me to tie.
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Old 10-14-2010, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Favorite "loop" knot?

Thanks, Frank for clearing up a bunch of confusion, for giving Duncan credit for a knot he came up with in the 50's or early 60's (now called the uni-knot), as well as for your last sentence which is absolutely accurate.

I've recently come to the conclusion that machine knot-testing just don't mean a whole lot, and different people using the same machine will get different results with the same knots every time. It's all how uniformly you can tighten them like you said- and that's mainly a matter of feel, practice and lubricant.

Also, knot strength often isn't the issue, as with shock (often now called "bite") tippets. Some knots will cause trolled lures to spin; loop knots are more prone to causing enormous salt-water flies with long hair to foul around the hook/hooks when casting or landing, and so on. Some, like the "Rapala" (in my opinion) add unnecessary "anti-slippage' measures, which weaken the knot by making it nearly impossible to tighten properly and make it bulkier at the same time.

Some take too long to re-tie, some use too much tippet to re-tie, sometimes neither of those things matter at all.

There just isn't one knot for all situations.

I was curious like Nedun about why your leader butt to fly line connection breaks before your fly to tippet connection too, Ard - unless you are "unsporting" like me.

I run straight 60 lb leader on my 12 wt for big fish - which exceeds the strength of my actual fly line. But both exceed the strength of the hooks I use, or the hookup in the fish's mouth, and I'm able to handle them much quicker. I also use 80 something pound test backing.

Cheers,
Jim
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Old 10-15-2010, 10:11 AM
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Default Re: Favorite "loop" knot?

I agree with Rip Tide in that for most salt water fishing “Every knot should be as close to 100% as possible.” Starting with the connection the fly leader butt to the fly line, there are many methods that depend on what tippet strengths, fly line type and quick change capabilities you will be using. The taper from the butt section to the tippet connection is usually constructed with a barrel knots (blood), most recommendations don’t mention that the larger diameter mono should have less turns than the smaller mono. You know when the proportions of the turns on each side of the knot are correct because the final setting of the knot will have the same tension in both sides where neither side will be looser. I created a connection that enables the quick changing of the a pre-tied tippet, a loop knot (Duncan) about 2 inches long is tied at the end the tapered leader, the last section of the tapered leader cannot be too small of a diameter, it must be compatible with the tippet sizes to be used. The quick change tippet should have a twenty-times-around knot (Bimini) for the butt end with the double line doubled with an surgeons knot, this loop is looped on and off the loop knot at the end of the leader taper with a figure eight configuration to give a 100% connection. If you are not using a shock tippet (Bite) you can tie any of the knots previously, however we have found that the strongest connection for the tippet to the fly is a hand wrapped Bimini. This can be accomplished by passing the tippet through the hook eye once or twice; wrap about 6 or 8 haywire type turns up the tippet, snug them, then reversing direction with spirals back down almost to the hook eye, half hitch around one leg of the line at the hook eye and tie a multi-turn hitch to secure the tag end. If you want a loop type connection just leave a little more room between the bottom of the Bimini and only go through the eye once at the beginning. These tippets should be tested with the weighted bucket as previously recommended and in addition they should be broken with a jerk (not some dummy at the other end) the hook needs to be secured to something solid and you should use gloves holding the tapered portion to see that only the tippet breaks.
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