Switch on the cheap

dwizum

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Just put together my first two handed outfit. Definitely not fancy or braggable, but it'll get me started I'm sure. And I'm psyched about the bargain prices I managed to grab this (all brand new) gear at.



Rod is a 11'6" Douglas DHF I won on eBay for $61. Reel is a Cabela's Wind River, got it on sale for $20. I have two of these in other sizes, and for a budget reel I really like it. Line is Orvis Switch line, got it on eBay for $44. So here I have a workable rig for $125, which is exactly half the sticker price of the rod alone. :D

I'm pretty excited to try it. Will be on some appropriate water next weekend.
 

ia_trouter

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Looks like a great way to start at a great price, and who knows maybe it will be all you need for a very long time. I have a few of those reels and they catch fish just fine. What line does that rig need?
 

dwizum

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What line does that rig need?
Being new to this I'm not sure if I got the line quite right. I tried to do plenty of research up front but the whole spey/switch thing is confusing when it comes to matching lines to rods.

The rod is rated as a 6 weight. Douglas says it needs a 290 grain line. There doesn't seem to be a consistent correlation between the weight rating and the grain weight for switch rods or lines. Most/all "6 weight" switch lines are heavier than 290 grains. I've seen the line charts on Rio's website, but they don't include Douglas rods. So I found rods from other manufacturers with similar specs (action and grain recommendation) and looked those up on the Rio charts. Even though I didn't end up with a Rio line, this helped me understand the overall theory and how it's OK for certain types of line to be different than the rod manufacturer's suggestion. I also read reviews for different lines and tried to notice trends (i.e. people saying "this line can be matched to the rod's weight rating" or "go a weight up for this line" and so on).

In the end I got the 6 weight line, Orvis rates it as a 340 grain. So technically it's too heavy but that seems to be typical.

I'm going to try nymphing with this rod first since, in general, I'm more familiar with that than with swinging streamers. Once I get some comfort I may get another reel and line that reel for swinging. I have a pack of 9' tapered leaders I could use but I think I'm gonna splurge and try a furled leader from cutthroat. Now it's time to go wade through a bunch more options and pick one out. Hopefully it'll get here by next weekend.
 

bloomagoo

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Just put together my first two handed outfit. Definitely not fancy or braggable, but it'll get me started I'm sure. And I'm psyched about the bargain prices I managed to grab this (all brand new) gear at.



Rod is a 11'6" Douglas DHF I won on eBay for $61. Reel is a Cabela's Wind River, got it on sale for $20. I have two of these in other sizes, and for a budget reel I really like it. Line is Orvis Switch line, got it on eBay for $44. So here I have a workable rig for $125, which is exactly half the sticker price of the rod alone. :D

I'm pretty excited to try it. Will be on some appropriate water next weekend.
I think we share some genetic code :thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

ia_trouter

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If you want to keep the low buck theme going, head over to a spey forum and find a used line that is the correct weight or a bit heavier. That will get you started and you can figure out what you like. Of course buying a nice new line recommended by the manufacturer is a good option too. I just don't know the budget, or what grain weight line you will eventually find is right for you. Pay attention to the grains. The rod WT rating doesn't mean much in two hand rods.
 

ia_trouter

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The reels are surprisingly serviceable for the price. Drags work fine. Spools are pretty wide so they hold a bit too much backing. They make a good starter or spare reel. They aren't quite as tight as an expensive reel. They are much cheaper than a spare spool for a higher end reel. I've just found it very handy to have a few Wind Rivers around in a couple sizes while starting out in this sport.
 

lake flyer

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Dwizum, you are in big trouble now. I, too, got a great deal on my first two hander, saved so much money, now here I am, four rods later, I realize that first rod cost me a lot more than I bargained for. Welcome to the wide wonderful world of speycasting. You have a real nice looking setup there. Enjoy the learning, and catching!
 

dwizum

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The reels are surprisingly serviceable for the price. Drags work fine. Spools are pretty wide so they hold a bit too much backing. They make a good starter or spare reel. They aren't quite as tight as an expensive reel. They are much cheaper than a spare spool for a higher end reel. I've just found it very handy to have a few Wind Rivers around in a couple sizes while starting out in this sport.
I agree with all of this. It fishes just fine. Granted I haven't tied into any giant fish (yet) but it's worked great so far. I have one of each size right now. The drag feels smooth and there's a pretty big adjustment window, meaning small changes in the knob make small differences. My brother in law just put a $150 brand name reel on his new switch rod, and tiny little changes in the drag knob make huge changes in the feel - I'd have a problem with that.

If I had to have a complain it would be that there's some lateral slop in the main bearing. It's not causing any problems, it just feels sloppy. You have to know it's there to notice it though.

In the end, it's a cast aluminum reel with rulon drag for $20 that feels similar to or nicer than the common $80 - $125 reels from big names. I'm definitely happy.

lakeflyer, thanks. I'm already worried for my wallet's sake just trying to pick out what line to buy next, much less another two handed setup. But after a few hours lawn casting, I can say I am 100% hooked on this spey casting thing. I don't see myself ever false casting again, at least for bigger water.

Speaking of lines, I'm still confused. People say "trust the grain weight" but then manufacturers themselves contradict that, and people actually fishing the rated grain weight seems to be the exception rather than the norm. For instance, this series of blog posts:

http://www.ginkandgasoline.com/fly-...t-3-the-rio-switch-and-skagit-short-reviewed/

He has a rod that is very similar to mine (his is a Scott 11' 6 weight rated for 280/320 grain line, mine is 11'6" 6 weight rated for 290 grain line. Both are marketed as medium/fast). Despite the 320 skagit rating on his, in the blog he puts a 425 grain Rio skagit short line on it, which admittedly matches Rio's own suggestion. And he seems to really like it. That's like 30% over the rod manufacturer's suggestion! If I have a manufacturer telling me 290 grain, how am I supposed to know what to put on it? Other than "buy it and try it" which seems frustrating, especially since I'm a beginner - I might not realize if I have the wrong line on the rod...
 

ia_trouter

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Speaking of lines, I'm still confused. People say "trust the grain weight" but then manufacturers themselves contradict that, and people actually fishing the rated grain weight seems to be the exception rather than the norm.
It's true that many times people stray from the specs. You really only have a few choices unless you buy a custom line. Trust the rod manufacturer, or find somebody you trust that owns the exact rod. Most reputable rod manufacturers have a recommended "Grain Window" and within that window, often a specific recommendation for particular line types (skagit vs scandi), sometimes even specific branded lines. As I think I mentioned before, get a used line in near new condition if you aren't confident you have a good starting point. I narrowed my choices down to Echo and Beulah because I knew I could get good line recommendations. But in the end, I could end up straying from optimum line weights anyway. They have no idea what flies I will throw, tip weights etc. This isn't a 3WT creek rod and matching the line is just more complicated.
 

dwizum

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Nice set up. I want to take you with me next time i go shopping for a new stick!!! Tight Lines, Jeff.
The trick with eBay is to know what patterns create good deals. In this case, there was a seller with more than a dozen Douglas rods all for sale in no reserve auctions, and they all ended at the same exact time. This is a classic case for a good deal. Several of nearly the same item ending at the same time means the handful of interested buyers will have trouble bouncing back and forth.

If the rods had ended a day apart, there would be more competition for each one. If you missed the first one, you could stick around and bid on the second one, and so on. So pretty much every interested party ends up bidding on each one. But since they all ended at the same time, and no one wants to get stuck with several of them, buyers will usually pick a single item to bid on, and they'll ignore the rest. So there's way less competition for any given item.
 

dwizum

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Well my plans for a weekend of fishing had some last minute kinks but I did manage about half a day on a good sized creek (eighteen mile creek south of Buffalo NY for the locals). It was very high and very muddy, looked like chocolate milk. I'd say about 50% of my casts were really terrible and the other 50% were good, but I had a blast anyways.

Still not really sure if this line is appropriate for the rod. The creek was only maybe 40 feet across so I really didn't need to shoot much line, pretty much just flopping the head and leader around.
 

dwizum

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I've been out a bunch more times and am really enjoying this rig, but I am still not sure if the line is correct for the rod.

I am having a hard time relating cause and effect.

If I put a "large" fly on, it gets harder to cast well. By large, I mean a smallish intruder - I'm tying them on 28mm shanks with size 6 hooks. The cast doesn't go as far as I'd like and I end up with a bunch of slack line - it's like it just dies in midair and falls to the water instead of rolling out and turning over nicely.

That's the effect. What's the cause? Am I casting a fly that's too big on a line that is otherwise appropriate for my rod? Or is the line just not heavy enough for the fly?

Put another way, could I go to a heavier line and cast these flies OK, or should I stick to smaller flies?
 

runningfish

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Dwizum,
The grain window is for your reference it will be close but not a bible.
Sticks have different personality even from the same manufacturer and add the caster skills and preferences. That is why a lot of people casting different lines for the same rods.

I don't know Douglas rod but I think your 11'6" 6 weight is under weight with 290 grain (Scandi?). You said that you could cast the same flies OK with heavier line, means that the first line is too light. A 6 weight will cast size 6 fly with ease with the right line. You can try your friend's line on your rod and see how it feels. I think your friend's 425 Skagit floating is about right a 6 weight switch.

My 6/7 weight 11 ft switch, cast 390 Rage Compact and 415 intermediate Skagit. I tried a V2 325 Beulah Elixir on it, it went; but iffy.
My echo fiberglass 4 weight 10'8" cast V2 250 Beulah Elixir Scandi and 300 Compact rage. Just to give a bit comparison.

I stick with the recommended grain window and halve it to start with, or call Steve Godshall and be ready for a long over the phone tutorial with him. You'll learn a lot in a short time.
 

dwizum

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I appreciate the feedback. My buddy (who is also really new to switch) cast my rod on our last outing and he felt like it was under-lined.

I'm going to the Speynation event here in upstate NY in a few weeks, I'm going to bring this rig and see if I can get some experienced hands to cast it and provide any feedback, before I go spend money on another line. Ultimately I'd like to have two reels ready to go, one set up for nymphing and one for swinging flies. I think this line would be OK for the nymph setup, it just doesn't feel like enough for a big streamer.
 

dwizum

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A few more months have passed and I thought I'd update the thread.

Last spring, I did get a lot of time with this rig, mostly for steelhead, mostly on smallish great lakes tribs. My less-than-perfect casting results were totally adequate.

This summer and fall, I've started regularly fishing on the Salmon River in New York. It's bigger. A half-hearted cast won't cut it any more. I struggled the first few times out, trying to determine the problem - was it my technique? Was it the rod? Was it the line?

Well, after racking up the hours, I got to the point where I can cast consistently, without thinking about what I'm doing. This took maybe 100-150 hours of on-the-water time. Also, I went to that speynation event, and cast a whole bunch of other rigs. It was very enlightening. Getting the consistency in my technique and knowing what it felt like to cast a properly balanced rig left me feeling like it HAD to be the rig.

It also left me with a direction to go in. This rod is labeled a 6 wt, and the manufacturer suggests 290 grains. When I was casting it back to back with rods from other manufacturers (Redington, Sage, Scott, Echo) the consistent feeling I had was that my rod was a LOT stiffer/heavier than other "6wt" rods.

Also, now that I've got some good exposure to the whole switch/spey world, I've decided that I'd be totally happy swinging streamers 100% of the time with this rod, I don't really need or want to use it for drifting nymphs.

All this put together put me back on the hunt for some more bargains, so I could get a "proper" setup for this rod. The final straw was hooking in to a monster King salmon up on the Salmon River. That thing took off downriver like a freight train, and when I reached up to dial in a bit more drag, that cheap Cabella's reel basically called it quits. The drag suddenly got way light, resulting in a big snarl of line flying off the reel, jamming in the guides, and causing the fish to break off. I'm sure you'll all be mumbling "I told you so." I will still keep the Cabella's reel for lighter-duty use, but now I was in the market for a new reel, too.

For backing, I picked up a giant spool of white 30# dacron on Amazon for $18. No more buying 100 yards at a time with every reel, this should last a while. For running line, I decided to try mono and ordered a giant spool of Trilene Big Game in Solar Collector green - I like the price/performance ratio and the high-visibility aspect of the color. For a head, I found a 400 grain SA Skagit Extreme on eBay for $24.



For a reel, I knew I needed something with a more-reliable drag. No more cheapo reels for this rig. I'd really admired the Hardy Ultralite reels that several vendors at the speynation were using for their demo rigs. As luck would have it, they were on closeout on backcountry.com so I picked one up with a coupon (the 7000 DD) for just over $100.

The unplanned bonus of this setup is that I'm now flying the green, white, and gold of the Irish flag on my reel.





I can't say enough good things about this setup. The mono line shoots well, doesn't tangle, and I find the handling perfectly acceptable - I haven't had it slip and it mends better than I expected. The head is able to throw the flies I need and turns over well. The reel is a piece of art, and the drag has proven totally capable of playing big fish. Just this past Saturday I had what was probably my largest King ever on the line, fought it right up to the net, only to have it toss the hook and swim away while I was scooping it out of the water. I'm gonna go start another thread about that, but suffice to say, the reel did a GREAT job.

I feel like reaching out to Douglas to tell them their rods are under-rated, but I'd assume they know this. Or maybe it's me, after all. But the 400 grain skagit head has woken this rod up, even if it's way over the 290 grain suggestion. The rod needs a compact stroke (compared to some of the longer rods I cast at speynation) but it loads well and feels much more energetic with the extra weight in the head. It feels like I'm casting a lively spring now, instead of a wet noodle. I can launch a fly as far as I need to, but even just up close, the rod is lively and I can use a very small flick to toss it around up close.

I'm now in a point where I'm totally happy with my "budget" rig, even if the budget had to be expanded past the original number. My casting is consistent and I can easily put a fly right on the opposite bank of the Salmon River, which is the biggest water I'm ever likely to fish. I'm trying not to let my ego get to me, but on each of the last 3 or 4 days I've been up there, I've had people stop and watch, then compliment my casting and/or ask if I had any tips for them. I'll take this as a good sign that I've got things dialed in. :thumbsup:
 

Dubhlaine

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A few more months have passed and I thought I'd update the thread.

Last spring, I did get a lot of time with this rig, mostly for steelhead, mostly on smallish great lakes tribs. My less-than-perfect casting results were totally adequate.

This summer and fall, I've started regularly fishing on the Salmon River in New York. It's bigger. A half-hearted cast won't cut it any more. I struggled the first few times out, trying to determine the problem - was it my technique? Was it the rod? Was it the line?

Well, after racking up the hours, I got to the point where I can cast consistently, without thinking about what I'm doing. This took maybe 100-150 hours of on-the-water time. Also, I went to that speynation event, and cast a whole bunch of other rigs. It was very enlightening. Getting the consistency in my technique and knowing what it felt like to cast a properly balanced rig left me feeling like it HAD to be the rig.

It also left me with a direction to go in. This rod is labeled a 6 wt, and the manufacturer suggests 290 grains. When I was casting it back to back with rods from other manufacturers (Redington, Sage, Scott, Echo) the consistent feeling I had was that my rod was a LOT stiffer/heavier than other "6wt" rods.

Also, now that I've got some good exposure to the whole switch/spey world, I've decided that I'd be totally happy swinging streamers 100% of the time with this rod, I don't really need or want to use it for drifting nymphs.

All this put together put me back on the hunt for some more bargains, so I could get a "proper" setup for this rod. The final straw was hooking in to a monster King salmon up on the Salmon River. That thing took off downriver like a freight train, and when I reached up to dial in a bit more drag, that cheap Cabella's reel basically called it quits. The drag suddenly got way light, resulting in a big snarl of line flying off the reel, jamming in the guides, and causing the fish to break off. I'm sure you'll all be mumbling "I told you so." I will still keep the Cabella's reel for lighter-duty use, but now I was in the market for a new reel, too.

For backing, I picked up a giant spool of white 30# dacron on Amazon for $18. No more buying 100 yards at a time with every reel, this should last a while. For running line, I decided to try mono and ordered a giant spool of Trilene Big Game in Solar Collector green - I like the price/performance ratio and the high-visibility aspect of the color. For a head, I found a 400 grain SA Skagit Extreme on eBay for $24.



For a reel, I knew I needed something with a more-reliable drag. No more cheapo reels for this rig. I'd really admired the Hardy Ultralite reels that several vendors at the speynation were using for their demo rigs. As luck would have it, they were on closeout on backcountry.com so I picked one up with a coupon (the 7000 DD) for just over $100.

The unplanned bonus of this setup is that I'm now flying the green, white, and gold of the Irish flag on my reel.





I can't say enough good things about this setup. The mono line shoots well, doesn't tangle, and I find the handling perfectly acceptable - I haven't had it slip and it mends better than I expected. The head is able to throw the flies I need and turns over well. The reel is a piece of art, and the drag has proven totally capable of playing big fish. Just this past Saturday I had what was probably my largest King ever on the line, fought it right up to the net, only to have it toss the hook and swim away while I was scooping it out of the water. I'm gonna go start another thread about that, but suffice to say, the reel did a GREAT job.

I feel like reaching out to Douglas to tell them their rods are under-rated, but I'd assume they know this. Or maybe it's me, after all. But the 400 grain skagit head has woken this rod up, even if it's way over the 290 grain suggestion. The rod needs a compact stroke (compared to some of the longer rods I cast at speynation) but it loads well and feels much more energetic with the extra weight in the head. It feels like I'm casting a lively spring now, instead of a wet noodle. I can launch a fly as far as I need to, but even just up close, the rod is lively and I can use a very small flick to toss it around up close.

I'm now in a point where I'm totally happy with my "budget" rig, even if the budget had to be expanded past the original number. My casting is consistent and I can easily put a fly right on the opposite bank of the Salmon River, which is the biggest water I'm ever likely to fish. I'm trying not to let my ego get to me, but on each of the last 3 or 4 days I've been up there, I've had people stop and watch, then compliment my casting and/or ask if I had any tips for them. I'll take this as a good sign that I've got things dialed in. ?
Love your write up and set up. I'm from Ireland orgionally living in western PA for the last 30 years. Recently retired and wanted to get into spay casting and Skagit lines for Kings, it's a little overwhelming to say the least and after several hours research i may stick with steelhead this season ? and get into some kings next year. :)
Would love to pick your brain if possible? Tight lines, John
Take care John
 

Ard

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Love your write up and set up. I'm from Ireland orgionally living in western PA for the last 30 years. Recently retired and wanted to get into spay casting and Skagit lines for Kings, it's a little overwhelming to say the least and after several hours research i may stick with steelhead this season ? and get into some kings next year. :)
Would love to pick your brain if possible? Tight lines, John
Take care John
Just go ahead and post any questions you may have John. There are multiple brains here to pick and the OP on this thread hasn't updated since 2015 and hasn't logged on since 2017. Post away, we have members here that fly fish for kings with Spey rods every season.
 
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