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Old 09-16-2009, 11:43 PM
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Default recommended line weight.

Hello everyone, On my trip this year on Eagle Lake ontario I saw a legal musky that did a few follows then the whole rest of the week was high winds, and lightning and thunderstorms. I was unable to raise another musky on hardware or flies. The only thing I was able to get this fish to follow on was a 12" fly I have. I'm using a 10wt sage tcr to cast and I've tried using sharkskin magnum and rio outbound line. I'm having issues getting the fly any further than 30ft on my casts. I'm sure some has to do with my mechanics but I was wondering if going to an 11wt or 12wt rod and line, or should I be using a different 10wt line that will help me get a little distance?


Thanks,

Mike.
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Old 09-17-2009, 01:34 AM
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Default Re: recommended line weight.

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Originally Posted by Magoo79 View Post
I'm using a 10wt sage tcr to cast and I've tried using sharkskin magnum and rio outbound line. I'm having issues getting the fly any further than 30ft on my casts. I'm sure some has to do with my mechanics but I was wondering if going to an 11wt or 12wt rod and line, or should I be using a different 10wt line that will help me get a little distance?
You should be able to punch out those larger flies on a 10 weight TCR fairly easily with the said lines. The Sharkskin Magnum is roughly one full line weight heavier. The Rio Outbound is roughly two line weights heavier. You should be feeling the rod load.

I have noticed though that many casters have trouble casting the 37' head on a Rio Outbound. It's just too much head length for them to manage. Because of that, Rio introduced the Outbound Short last fall. That line has a 30' head with the same amount of grain weight as the standard Outbound. Managing 30' of line is much easier than managing 37' of line.

The TCR is an ultra fast rod. It really requires a very quick and powerful stroke to get the rod to load for you. If you cannot match your stroke to the action of the rod, it's not the right rod for you.

I cannot comment on your casting ability since I have never seen you cast before. If you have some spare time, go to a local fly shop and have one of the shop rats watch you cast. He/she could give you some feedback on your casting. Just wondering, can you do a double haul cast?

MP
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Old 09-17-2009, 09:24 AM
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Default Re: recommended line weight.

I can get the rod to load, and I put a pretty good bend in the rod on my forward and backward cast. the problem I have is on the cast I will get the line out but the big hairy flies just seem to catch alot of wind and slow down and stop the momentum at about 50ft. I was hoping to may get some more distance out if there was a better line i should be using or I maybe wasn't using a heavy enough weight.

Thanks,

Mike.
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:02 AM
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Default Re: recommended line weight.

Mike,

How long is your leader? What size mono are you using?

A twelve inch fly is larger than anything I have ever cast but I do hurl large (3/0) weighted flies with a large, (pea sized) split shot on my leader. The combo I just described requires that after retrieving the fly I make a roll cast to my front, then use the friction of the water to load the rod for the back cast. When the back cast is underway I slip ten or more feet of line into it then haul the line hard and shoot as much as I can on the delivery. Don't get concerned about bending the rods, most of the potential energy held within the rod is built into the progressive taper of the rod. The more flex you put into the rod the more kinetic energy you will unleash into the cast. Harnessing that energy with proper timing and casting style is up to you as the variable in the action.

The technique I'm describing to you allows for a cast of 30 or 40 feet. For a longer cast I repeat the process as soon as the first cast lands. The second effort allows another 20 feet or so to be added to the presentation. This will 'load' your rod even harder but do not fear, the rod will handle the task. Your timing and style become even more critical to the success of the action at this time.

As for the short casts, those casts in which the leader doesn't stretch out, make a strip equal to the length of your leader as quick as you can. This puts the fly into swimming action and straitens the leader while under water. I don't consider a cast when the leader doesn't straiten out as a bad cast. There are no bad casts when you're fishing wet flies. If the fly lands in the water it is a good cast.

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Last edited by Hardyreels; 09-17-2009 at 11:05 AM. Reason: add content
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Old 09-17-2009, 12:55 PM
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Default Re: recommended line weight.

Thanks for the tips. I'll try them out. Hopefully I will have some time to take a a casting lesson or 2 before winter to improve my technique and work out some of my bad habits.
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Old 09-17-2009, 01:39 PM
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Default Re: recommended line weight.

How long have you been fly casting? Reaching the point that I have described was not an overnight occasion for me. I had years of experience and had became proficient as a caster prior to acquiring my first pike rod. My first big rod was a 9' 7wt. Lamiglass with a very soft action. It took some getting used to the timing but the rod served me for many years. I used it for salmon and pike into the early nineties when I purchased a 9' 9wt. graphite rod.
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Old 09-17-2009, 02:49 PM
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Default Re: recommended line weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magoo79 View Post
I can get the rod to load, and I put a pretty good bend in the rod on my forward and backward cast. the problem I have is on the cast I will get the line out but the big hairy flies just seem to catch alot of wind and slow down and stop the momentum at about 50ft. I was hoping to may get some more distance out if there was a better line i should be using or I maybe wasn't using a heavy enough weight.

Thanks,

Mike.
If your problem lies more in getting the fly to turn over than getting the line out there, then the problem likely lies in the fly itself. Keeping in mind that the fly line is actually towing the fly through the air, the fly's own wind resistance may be more than its own inertia and the assistance of the leader can overcome.

This may seem counterintuitive, but adding weight to the fly may help. Imagine throwing both a dry sponge and a wet sponge as far as you can. I bet you already know the wet sponge will fly farther, due to it having some extra weight that can overcome the resistance. The key is to get enough extra weight on the fly to overcome its wind resistance without adding so much that its a burden to cast.

A guy named Mark Sedotti from the East Coast has made a name for himself promoting this idea, and frequently appears at fly shows using fairly light rods to throw very large flies astonishing distances. His theories generate some controversy, as seen here http://www.reel-time.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29835
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Old 09-17-2009, 08:02 PM
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Default Re: recommended line weight.

While I agree with Cliff in principle, the additional weight to the fly would ruin my big northern flies. I throw 10 inch flies with a nine foot leader on an eight weight Temple forks with a nine weight pike taper. I would recommend the pike taper over all others for big stuff IMHO. I can push it 60-70 feet on most days with minimal wind.
You will need to adjust your casting throw. It is critical to not start your forward cast until the back cast has straightened out. As Cliff said the fly is very big and will kill your line speed. This type of fishing is a double haul must and cannot be over emphasized. Even being used to fishing this style almost exclusively I still end of with piles on my head when I blow the timing.
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Old 09-18-2009, 10:37 PM
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Default Re: recommended line weight.

thanks for the tip guys. I'm going to be trying some of those ideas. I still have some time to practice before the area gets hard water. for probably the last 5 years i have mostly been fishing a 00wt and a 6wt rod but this year I decided to try for the bigger fish to break up my time on the water throwing big musky baits and pike baits with my bait casters.


Thanks everyone,

Mike.
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