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Old 12-21-2013, 09:21 PM
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Joan Wulff Fly Casting Video by Winston

Originally Posted by wjc View Post

Yes, I believe the terminology, descriptions and some of the generalizations drawn are confusing. Take this sentence:

How would you describe the position of Steve's elbow at the start of his forward cast here - taken from the video you posted? "Up and to the side" or " Forward"?

Click the image to open in full size.

How would you describe the position of Joan Wulff’s elbow here? "Up and to the side" or "forward?

Click the image to open in full size.

It looks to me that, most casters would say that if Joan were not to move her elbow forward, she would have to complete her forward cast with her elbow behind her head.

Neither looks anything like these 2 illustrations or the time lapse below to me.
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

There is no question that for accuracy competitions, the “elbow forward” method as illustrated above is by far the best method of casting to use for that purpose.

For sit down fishing from kayaks, canoes or float tubes, for surf casting, and casting long distances, it may not be the best to use, as Al said about float tubing. And, indeed, people like Joan Wulff, Tim and Steve Rajeff do not use that style either in all fishing situations.

However, Al Kyte also prefaces his discussion of “elbow forward style” with this:

He is talking about starting beginning classes.

His description of the “elbow out the to side” starts with this

But few things in dynamic motions such as casting exist in simplest form. I use that "out to the side" style or an in close pull , but my upper arm is certainly going somewhere - on long casts, it's going back as far as it will go as fast as it will go there without yanking itself out of its socket. Is that something I would teach ? No. Has it ever once hurt my arm in the last 55 years of doing it? No. Have I ever had any injury whatsoever due to flycasting? No. Am I a wild, crazy man? Yes .

Not all people all the same, so what may be the best method for Al may not be the best method for Turbine or me or Guest #1.

Steve Rajeff outweighs me by probably 100 pounds and most of it fast twitch muscle. I am down myself 40 lbs from the prime weight of my youth and that was all muscle. There is no way I can cast the way he does and even remotely approach the distance I get or the endurance I have with my own styles and techniques of casting.

Much saltwater fly fishing is more closely related to distance casting than to freshwater fly fishing. Since I fish primarily the salt now, I have more in common with the above picture of Joan's closing cast than any of the other pictures in the video it came from.

So I tend to take some of the dogma I hear and read concerning casting with a grain or two of salt. As the old saying goes, different strokes for different folks. I would encourage others to play with their casting, and not to subscribe exclusively to any one style or technique that you may have seen, been taught or otherwise acquired.

So, Turbine, lets see a video of your casting style.
I'll try to get one up -- that's all I've been doing is casting here for the holidays at the inlaw's house.

Looking at Mel's cast, I believe that it's possible that what I'm doing somewhat of a "hybrid" between the 2 styles under discussion here. Actually, I can't see how you can NOT cast without using the rotation of the shoulder. It's just that I'm casting with my elbow more or less on the side of my ribcage. I view some of these front-elbom casters as actually having the elbow locked in the front of the rib cage, and I find that this is horribly unnatural for my own casting. On longer casts, I pivot to my rear foot and use a very hard stop and then pivot forward again -- which is often what I see with tournament casting videos.

I'll get a video up -- maybe you'll see what I'm doing and it's possible that I'm not really a full-on side-elbow caster afterall. All I know is that it works for me and nothing else feels like a way I'd want to cast a fly rod. I'm definitely not using any kind of wispy, anemic "swishing" of the fly rod back and forth. My stops and movements are very much shoulder rotastion and not arm extension or anything.

I'm 6'0" and have very long arms for my height, so maybe that has some impact...but who knows.

I've messed around with the front-elbow casting style (at least my *thinking about what this means) and I can't see how you can not throw the fly line direcly downward to the ground in front of you. It's just weird to me. I will admit though, that line speed is quite good for the energy input on the cast.

I'm not knocking the style -- that would be ignorant. I know MOST distance casters use some variation of a front-elbow cast, and obviously it works great for a lot of people. I almost wish I could do it to get the extra knowledge and understanding of fly casting.

---------- Post added at 09:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 PM ----------

[QUOTE=silver creek;622280]That is a very strange thing for Lefty to say since natives don't throw a spear sidearm but overhand keeping the elbow forward with the forearm above the elbow and not to the side. Compare the elbow forward illustration below with the video that follows,

Click the image to open in full size.

Silver -- I watched the video and this looks like a side-elbow cast to me (the spear guy). To me, this looks nothing like Joan Wulff casting a short length of line with her elbow jammed in front of her ribs.

I think this is just a confusion of the style and of casting looks very similar to this guy throwing the spear, but I never would have called that "front elbow" at all.

---------- Post added at 09:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 PM ----------

Watch the double haul video by this front-elbow guy down on the bottom right of the page:

Double Haul

If you threw a spear with his forward casting motion, it would appear to follow a downward path and stick straight into the ground in front of him instead of in a useful direction.

His back cast isn't too much different than mine (his rod angle is a bit more than mine), but his forward cast is noticeably more straight-down vs. mine, which is more out and down.
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