leader confusion from a noob.......

lefty2 · Nov 27, 2010

i will admit that i am a bit inexperienced when it comes to fly fishing and the sport can be quite intimidating....but i am learning.

i do have a question. when it comes to packaged leaders, do you guys generally add tippet to it right away? also, can different size tippets be added to a leader or do they have to match? in my neck of the woods, there are few fly fishers, so i will turn to this site for help, if you all don't mind.

thanks, lefty.

wjc · Nov 27, 2010

Lefty,

I always have when I've used them. In freshwater I usually tied up my own though. This was because they are expensive and also because I usually fished still water where I preferred longer than nornal leaders.

About the only thing I use tapered leaderrs for anymore is bonefish, because the knots in tied leaders disturbs the bay and turtle grass they often cruise in.

For them I use tapered permit leaders which are 20lb test and add a long length of 10 or 12 lb to them. The tapered ones made for bonefish are not nearly long enough for the "downtown" fish I go after in my opinion.

If you are new to fly fishing, especially if fishing rivers and streams, the ready made leaders will be plenty long enough. After they shorten from fly changes, you can then add more tippet material with a blood knot, double duncan loop (uni Knot), or 3 turn surgeon's knot.

As far as matching, if you add tippet, is should be equal to or smaller in diameter than what you are
attaching to. For better fly turnover, it should be smaller. Way too small is not good, but you will know that by the difficulty you will experience when tying a blood or uni knot.

Cheers,
Jim

ant · Nov 27, 2010

I generally fish with 7-9' leaders and then add about 2' of tippet to them. Leaders are expensive and I try to make mine last.

I've tied a smaller diameter tippet to larger leaders (7x tippet to a 5x leader) in a few instances, but not very often. You have to be careful with this, if the diameters are too far apart your fly might not turn over properly.

jcw355 · Nov 27, 2010

There should be around 4 feet of usable tippet on your leader. Eventually it will become to short from re-tying on new flies and you will have to add to it. I put a tippet ring on my leader after it gets to short and then you only have to add tippet. Google tippet rings. You tie your ring to your shortened leader and then you tie your tippet to the ring. Saves money.

fredaevans · Nov 27, 2010

jcw355 said:
There should be around 4 feet of usable tippet on your leader. Eventually it will become to short from re-tying on new flies and you will have to add to it. I put a tippet ring on my leader after it gets to short and then you only have to add tippet. Google tippet rings. You tie your ring to your shortened leader and then you tie your tippet to the ring. Saves money.

Beat me to it. For 'Steelhead/Salmon' test leaders I don't use a tippet ring, but when I get below 6# material they're the 'Cat's Meow.'

fae

Rip Tide · Nov 27, 2010

I would recommend not using the tippet rings. Tie a very small Perfection loop in the leader end and then use a loop to loop connection. Surgeon loops and Non-Slip loops are both stronger then the "Perfection" for the tippet side.

You should be able to use 3 different tippet sizes on your leader. The one written on the package plus the X sizes larger and smaller.
But any difference in the diameter much more than .002" will make life difficult.

Auntie Em · Nov 27, 2010

The only leader I would ever use a tippet ring on would be a furled leader. On your prepackaged leader, put a tiny perfection loop at the end, and just be careful adding tippet (also with a small perfection loop, added handshake method), and enjoy!

sjs · Nov 27, 2010

lefty2 said:
i will admit that i am a bit inexperienced when it comes to fly fishing and the sport can be quite intimidating....but i am learning.

i do have a question. when it comes to packaged leaders, do you guys generally add tippet to it right away? also, can different size tippets be added to a leader or do they have to match? in my neck of the woods, there are few fly fishers, so i will turn to this site for help, if you all don't mind.

thanks, lefty.

Not due to a cost perspective. I bought about a hundred leaders because they were about $.30 each from STP. THink I have had them 2 or 3 years, still have a good 30 -50 left.

smog7 · Nov 28, 2010

Rip Tide said:
I would recommend not using the tippet rings. Tie a very small Perfection loop in the leader end and then use a loop to loop connection. Surgeon loops and Non-Slip loops are both stronger then the "Perfection" for the tippet side.

You should be able to use 3 different tippet sizes on your leader. The one written on the package plus the X sizes larger and smaller.
But any difference in the diameter much more than .002" will make life difficult.

anyone have a picture of how this leader would look?

cattech89 · Nov 28, 2010

Hi lefty,
Can you tell us what kind of water you are primarily targeting? I think that would help us to give you more direct information instead of a generalized answer.
I personally use furled leaders whenever I can. The last ones that I got were from forum member Joni. Check out her website then send her a PM. Her leaders are some of the best I have used. And although I havent been at this for too many years I have used several furled leaders.
Here's Joni's website......http://utahflygoddess.yolasite.com/

Rip Tide · Nov 28, 2010

smog7 said:
anyone have a picture of how this leader would look?

smog7 · Nov 29, 2010

is this a common leader design? any disadvantages to it?

Rip Tide · Nov 29, 2010

Yeah it's common enough.
The only disadvantage that I could think of is that if you're throwing tailing loops it may get in the way. But if that happens, it's the least of your worries.
Some people won't use the loop2loop connection because they think it will "hinge". That doesn't happen if you use an appropriate sized tippet.
Like I said earlier, I use a perfection loop in the leader, but for the tippet side I like a somewhat stronger knot like a surgeon's loop or the non-slip loop, but that's just me

---------- Post added at 10:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 AM ----------

Here's something else that I should add..
If you want to go radically smaller with your tippet, instead of changing the whole leader, just cut the current tippet back to about 6" and add your new, lighter tippet.
I use a blood knot, but you could use a surgeon's knot or your favorite

bjweller · Dec 2, 2010

What Ant said. Also, if your diameters are too far apart the knot can come undone or even be difficult to tie.

ausablebrown · Dec 2, 2010

Im sure that this only shows my ineptitude, but I have rarely used tippet. I used very little length of leader to tie on flies, and I can usually fish a couple days straight with a leader even changing flies often.

My bigger problem is that I get D*** wind knots in my leader so often that I usually have to trash it after I cast for a day or two because I have trimmed off a couple of feet due to wind knots.

My 9' leaders are 6.5 feet after 10 or 12 hours of my casting and I just discard them and start on a new one. It is frustrating to see 3 bucks wasted that quickly, but after I count the other costs associated with my hobby, what's $50 a year for leaders?

To your question, some situations, like Trico on the AuSable requires 12 or more foot leaders, this is when I use a 9 ft, and add 3 or so feet of tippet. The fish are very spooky at this time of year, and even more so in slower clear water.

I know people who nurse a leader butt section by retying 3 different tippet sections onto it until it is back to 9' or so. Other of my friends of mine do the same as me. I do not like the idea of having 1 or even more knots between me and the trout. I feel more secure in the strength of one peice of leader, and it does not snag on algae etc. either.

If anyone knows why I get so many wind knots, or if it is a thread elsewhere, let me know; this is my greatest fly-fishing frustration.

kglissmeyer1 · Dec 2, 2010

When I used to buy tapered leaders, I would buy 7 1/2 footers for nymphing and 9-foot for dries. I would make sure the nymphing leaders terminated in 2x to which I attached about 2-feet of 4x with a loop-to-loop as has been explained, to which I would attach my first fly. For the longer dry-fly leader I would make sure to buy those that terminated in 3x to which I would attach a 36-inch section of 5x. Both of these setups turned over quite well and when I whittled the tippet sections I attached down to about 10-12-inches I would add new tippet. Worked great for a lot of years.

I then discovered Gary Borger's leader formulas from his book "Presentation" and started making my own leaders. I now 'twist' my own leaders and am very happy with the results I get from that process. if you're interested in learning the process, I have a short tutorial at the following site: [ame="http://s682.photobucket.com/albums/vv185/kglissmeyer/"]Pictures by kglissmeyer - Photobucket[/ame]

Good luck.

Kelly.

P.S.: As for using a knotted leader, I have never, in the many years I've been tying my own leaders, had a leader knot fail when fighting a fish or in any other circumstance. The tippet is the lightest poundage and will break well before any problems with other knots as part of hand-tied leaders. At the same time it must be noted that knots must be properly lubricated to seat them well, and failure to do this will cause problems. Another aspect is aesthetics, some people just like the smooth taper provided by tapered leaders - that's okay, to each their own.:icon_bigg

rangerrich99 · Dec 2, 2010

lefty2 said:
i will admit that i am a bit inexperienced when it comes to fly fishing and the sport can be quite intimidating....but i am learning.

i do have a question. when it comes to packaged leaders, do you guys generally add tippet to it right away? also, can different size tippets be added to a leader or do they have to match? in my neck of the woods, there are few fly fishers, so i will turn to this site for help, if you all don't mind.

thanks, lefty.

I've only tied a couple of my own leaders, otherwise I use packaged leaders. With packaged leaders I pretty much always tie on some tippet; 18 inches at a minimum, more if I think I need it for some reason. As for sizes, most of the time I downsize one. For example, if I have a 4x leader, then I tie 5x tippet to it. If I decide the fish are spooking because of my 5x, then I tie on a couple feet of 6x to the end of the 5x. Of course, this only happens when I fish smaller dries. No real point in stepping down this precisely with subsurface flies, IMO.

When I first started this crazy addiction I was told to just buy 7.5 ft leaders and step down one for tippet, tying no more than 2 ft of tippet as a general rule. This served me well for nearly a year, then I started experiementing. Even now, I would say that 80% of the time I follow this guideline.

---------- Post added at 03:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 PM ----------

ausablebrown said:
If anyone knows why I get so many wind knots, or if it is a thread elsewhere, let me know; this is my greatest fly-fishing frustration.

There's actually a couple threads about this on AZflyandtie.com, with a few instructors putting in their two cents, which gets a little technical IMO. However, everyone seems to agree that the most common reason for this problem is too much power too early in the forward stroke.

For me, the reasons for this problem were multiple, but that was definitely one of them. Basically, on the presentation cast I'd be thinking about shooting a nice long cast and start applying too much acceleration to my forward cast almost immediately after completion of the backcast. I compounded the problem by allowing my wrist to break too much on said backcast, in anticipation of the forward cast and how much muscle I wanted to put on it. The rod would be nearly horizontal at this point and would not significantly change it's attitude until my hand was nearly at the end of the forward stroke. At that point my wrist would break forward trying to catch up, forcing the rod tip to draw a convex style arc, pretty much forcing me to throw a beautifully crafted professionally-tied windknot.

The fix for this turned out to be fairly simple. I was instructed to flick paint. If you imagine the rod is a paintbrush and it's loaded with paint, all you want to do is smoothly move the rod forward then 'flick' paint on a wall in front of you about ten feet away. That way the acceleration occurs near the end of the forward stroke and not at the beginning.

If you still have problems then I'll regale you with stories about all the other things I had to learn to minimize this problem.

Peace.

ausablebrown · Dec 2, 2010

Thx for the advice; any idea if this problem would be compunded or ameliorated by any speed of rod? For the most part my rods are medium to med fast. I have TFO Finesse, Sage TXL, and Scott a3, and a big 9' streamer chuckker my TFO Axiom. I never use a really fast action rod unless I have big streamers to throw.

Is this what they call a "tailing loop"? I'm not sure what they are, but I don't think I have them. My accuracy is usually ok and aside from my windknots I'm generally satisfied with my casting for this point in my career.

Hate to say it because I learnt' everything else about fly fishin the hard way, but I could probably use a casting lesson...or two...or a dozen, bakers dozen.

rangerrich99 · Dec 2, 2010

ausablebrown said:
Thx for the advice; any idea if this problem would be compunded or ameliorated by any speed of rod? For the most part my rods are medium to med fast. I have TFO Finesse, Sage TXL, and Scott a3, and a big 9' streamer chuckker my TFO Axiom. I never use a really fast action rod unless I have big streamers to throw.

Is this what they call a "tailing loop"? I'm not sure what they are, but I don't think I have them. My accuracy is usually ok and aside from my windknots I'm generally satisfied with my casting for this point in my career.

Hate to say it because I learnt' everything else about fly fishin the hard way, but I could probably use a casting lesson...or two...or a dozen, bakers dozen.

Hmm. I may have misread something. A tailing loop is a loop where the fly somehow gets itself below the flyline on the forward cast, usually catching the flyline or the leader before touching down. At the beginning of my flycasting career this was my favorite loop to throw. But after pestering my guide/instructor buddies for months, I finally learned enough to reduce this tendency significantly.

If this is your problem, then in spite of the fact that I am no expert at casting or flyfishing I do have several tips/tricks for dealing with it. And, of course, casting lessons from a professional would probably be a big help.

Note: even if your fly isn't catching your flyline, but it is dropping below it during the forward cast, that is a tailing loop, and something is awry.

As to the rods, I've only tried casting the TFO Finesse before, and I didn't have problems with it, though it is faster than my St. Croix's. That said, faster rods will produce more speed and acceleration with less effort, and tighter loops, so it seems likely that improper technique could make the problem of tailing loops worse. But I would get a more experienced opinion to be safe.

P.S. Okay, I did misread your post. Your difficulty is with windknots, which can be attributed to tailing loops, but is more of a subset of a larger group of problems. Windknot is a general term for which there are many possible causes. It could be a tailing loop, or it could be loop collapse, or it could be line twist, etc. In other words, I think I'd need more info. Sorry.

Teamanglerx · Dec 5, 2010

Question on tippet rings. Do they float or will they sink making them unusable with dry flies?

leader confusion from a noob.......

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