Knot a problem

[tjc]

I had a knot problem when salmon fishing in Alaska. I used the tried and true cinch knot to attach my flies to my 15 lb tippet. After fighting one silver salmon or three arctic char on an 8wt rod I could no longer trust my knot. It would break on the next fish. I had to retie my fly or risk loosing my next fish. The knot would break at the loop through the hooks eye. I was using red fire wire and a scientific Angler and Berkley's Trelene. I there a solution to this problem or just keep retieing the fly?

 

[Frank Whiton]

Hi tjc,

Where were you fishing in Alaska. Was it a trip or do you live there?

I am a little confused with your comment about "Red Fire Wire." I am not familiar with it. Is it a hook or a leader?

Using the clinch with the heavier tippet you may need to reduce the number of wraps. I suggest you try an Improved Clinch Knot or a Uni Knot. You say it is breaking at the loop and that is not how a knot usually falls. Knots generally fail because they slip. Maybe you have some old Trelene and it was breaking. If you are using a fine wire hook I guess it could cut the tippet at the knot but that would also be unusual. A fine wire hook would not be my choice for Alaska.

Frank

 

[MoscaPescador]

Frank had some great advice.

I will add this. If you are using streamers, use Lefty Kreh's Non-Slip Loop Knot. It is a 100% knot if tied properly. It works great with larger diameters of leader material. Also it adds a lot more movement to your fly.

MP

 

[jpbfly]

Frank had some great advice.

I will add this. If you are using streamers, use Lefty Kreh's Non-Slip Loop Knot. It is a 100% knot if tied properly. It works great with larger diameters of leader material. Also it adds a lot more movement to your fly.

MP

Great advice from Frank and MP,I used the Non Slip loop Knot when I fished for pike...it's an excellent one

 

[Bigfly]

For what it's worth, I retie after every big fish on. I've found over time, this is how Walter gets away. A small nick goes a long way. Fresh leader every year is a good idea too. If you combine flouro and mono, more wraps are needed, flouro can cut mono it seems. I prefer straight flouro to avoid issues.

 

[tjc]

Sorry, I mean't Berkley's fireline. Berkley FireLine - Crystal
Price Range:
$14.95 - $159.95
I traveled from WV to Dulles to Dallas Fortworth to Anchorage to King Salmon to Pilot point and bush planed it in to The Dog Salmon River Camp. It's near Ugashic Bay on the Penninsula. I live in West Virginia. I had a wonderful experience.
I will try the improved cinch knot.

---------- Post added at 03:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 PM ----------

Ugashik Bay on the Alaskan Penninsula. Dog Salmon River Camp near the Glacier. Aboundant Silver Salmon and Artic Char ( Dolly Madison ) and regular Char

 

[wjc]

The knots I use most frequently are the palomar, and the uni with an extra pass of the line taken through the eye.

The breaking strength of both is excellent, and both can be cinched up tight so that the knot does not slide on the hook eye. Both are also nice knots for not hooking weeds, and both work well with fluoro.

Incidentally, several, if not most, of the videos showing the palomar are wrong. Some show the loop that the fly is passed through left behind the hook eye. It should be passed over the hook eye so it cinches up the knot.


For flies that I want to wiggle I will generally use the Kreh loop unless I am using a heavy bite tippet or "shocker", which you probably don't care about, but it is below if anyone is interested.

If the shocker is 80 or 100lbs, I will just tie an overhand knot 3" up the line, snug it, pass the end through the hook eye then through the overhand, run the overhand to the hook eye, tighten by hand, tie another overhand over the standing line then lube, put the hook around something solid (deck cleat or the like) and cinch down with pliers.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[tjc]

Great advice Jim, thanks

 

[HuronRiverDan]

MP, thanks for the link to Lefty's knot...

Dan

 

[Frank Whiton]

After fighting one silver salmon or three arctic char on an 8wt rod I could no longer trust my knot. It would break on the next fish. I had to retie my fly or risk loosing my next fish. The knot would break at the loop through the hooks eye.

Hi tjc,

You may be expecting too much from any knot. One Silver Salmon and three Char is quite a bit of fishing without retying, especially with a Clinch Knot. The Char in that area get to good size and the Silvers can be huge. I think I would be checking that knot after every Salmon and making sure it is still tight and not beat up. I would be retying every once in a while just to be sure. It is true that fishing there is not like fishing the lower 48. Down here you might only get one or two chances at a Salmon and in that case I would retie after every Salmon. In Alaska if you break off there is always another Salmon so retying is not as big of a deal.

Frank

 

[Rip Tide]

I use 15# test mono all the time here for stripers
With clinch knot too and never 'improved'
A clinch with 15# mono usually requires three or three and a half turns only, not the recommended five.

When you're making the wraps and begin to feel resistance from the mono, you know you've made enough. If you go too far, the mono will begin to feel stiff and hard to manage
When you've made too many turns, the clinch knot or any other knot with barrel wraps (like a blood knot) will not tighten correctly and it will slip.

And a knot that slips is a knot that breaks

You should only use knots that you have confidence tying.
A inferior knot tied well is better than a high percentage knot tied poorly

 

[tjc]

Thanks for the info, but what is a, uni? The polomar look very good.

 

[wjc]

Here's a pretty good site for knots. I didn't look at the palomar though. the uni knot is down toward the bottom.

A Uni to uni is also a good knot for tying up leaders instead of the blood knot. The tag end does not stick out sideways like on blood knots and tends not to pick up weeds so bad.

Knots

Cheers,
Jim

 

[webrx]

I use the UNI knot almost exclusively to tie on flies, and while I have not done it yet, I think it would be great to tie tippet to leader. or leader to leader. I have a tapered leader that I need to add some tippet to, gonna give WJCs idea a shot.

d

 

[wjc]

D, I think you'll like it.

Tjc, I just checked that site out a bit more, and they have the palomar wrong. I also don't like the way they tie the Albright either, at least not for big fish- and you might get back to Florida some day for tarpon or sailfish. But even for mackerel, kingfish or sharks, it's a good way to tie tippet to wire.

I think the Albright should be tied with the standing end and the tag end going through the loop in opposite directions, and then the tag end should be tied around the standing end either with a double overhand knot or a three turn nail knot.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[Rip Tide]

Both the standing line and the tag end enter and exit the loop on an Albright knot on the same side, exactly like the illustration in the link.
I don't see anything wrong with the palomar either although that's not a knot that I use.
To 'lock' your Albright knot, you want use a uni knot, not a nail knot and definitely not overhand knots

http://www.animatedknots.com/albright/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
http://www.animatedknots.com/palomar/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

 

[Frank Whiton]

Hi Everyone,

In regards to the Albright knot, I agree with Lefty and Rip Tide that the line must enter and exit the loop from the same side. I would tie it just like the illustration.

I agree with wjc that the illustrated Palomar is not the way I would tie it. The knot needs to be in front of the hook eye, not tied over the eye. The first picture shows the correct way to tie a Palomar knot. I would also add that a Palomar can slip when tied using braided line like Spectra. With braided Spectra line you need to tie my double Palomar.

Frank

Correct

Incorrect

 

[wjc]

The reason I run the tag and standing ends out opposite sides on an Albright is so I can tie a lock knot with the tag end. I don't like the idea of having the entire knot dependent on the main line loop or wire bite tippet locking in a short snipped tag.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[Rip Tide]

The reason I run the tag and standing ends out opposite sides on an Albright is so I can tie a lock knot with the tag end. I don't like the idea of having the entire knot dependent on the main line loop or wire bite tippet locking in a short snipped tag.

Cheers,
Jim

I lock mine also, a trick I learned from Lefty ( I think)
I still tie the basic Albright the same as in the illustrations however

 

[Frank Whiton]

Hi Jim,

I learned to tie the Albright from Lefty's book. He states that unless you go back through the loop the same side that you entered the knot is not as strong. He has tested all of the knots in his book and I have always tied it that way. Lefty is the only instruction I could find that takes the tag end after it is returned through the loop and ties a small keeper knot. Here is how he does it.

He forms a small loop with the tag end and then wraps the tag around the main line inside of the loop he formed. Wrapping back towards the main Albright knot. Pulling the tag end to tighten the keeper knot back towards the Albright knot. The keeper knot will tighten up against the Albright knot. Trim the ends and you are good to go. This is how I have always tied it and don't ever remember it failing.

Frank