Light tippet or not...

[al_a]

Conventional wisdom has it that trout can be very line shy, and that one should use very light leaders and tippets in clear, heavily pressured water. The problem, of course, is that 6X to 8X tippet has a breaking strength of less than 2 pounds, leaving one little margin for error when you hook a fish.

I tend to go against conventional wisdom. I never use anything lighter than 6X, and seldom go below 5X. I fish both some heavily pressured public rivers in Missouri and several famous streams in Montana, including the spring creeks on the Yellowstone near Livingston (Armstrongs, DePuys, and Nelsons).

Here are my thoughts on the matter. If trout can distinguish a tiny midge from another bug and key on the midge--and refuse your fly if it's not quite good enough as a midge imitation--their eyes have to be good enough to see your line, no matter how light it is. So the line can't be a huge turn-off to them. Their brains are about the size of a pea and they don't think in the way that humans do. I'm pretty sure they don't think, "Hey, there's a nice looking little trico, but it has a line thingy hanging off it, so I don't think I'll eat it."

So I don't think that they pay much attention to lines the diameter of the tippets we use. I think the lightness of your line should not be determined so much by the clarity of the water and the wariness of the fish, but by how that line affects the drift and movement of your flies. 3X tippet is going to really affect the drift and attitude of a size 22 dry fly (even if you can fit it through the eye of the hook). But it won't make any difference to the movement of a size 8 woolybugger. So I mainly match the size of my tippet to the size of the flies I'm using, not the clarity of the water, and I go as heavy on the tippet as I can and still have the flies acting and drifting realistically. I use 4X to 6X mono for dry flies, 2X to 4X fluoro for most nymphs, and 0X to 3X fluoro for most streamers. And I catch fish wherever I fish.

Comments?

 

[crittergetter]

I agree with you.

I also feel the trout don't "See the line" they see a #22 midge floating incorrectly in the column they are eating in. One of the many books I read (i forget which one) said if you sit down at McDonald's and your order of fries moves across the table you wouldn't eat them because that isn't what an order of fries is supposed to do.

If you get a chance stop at "Readings" and get Charley talking about tippet he can talk hours on why in clear slow water you need the bug to float like a bug floats.

As far as lbs... Airflow 7x = 3lbs and Seaguar Grand Max 7x= 2.6

Both are expensive but this is all I use anymore. I think the Seaguar is the best in "Gin Clear" water at 7x.

Plus I am a fan of Doubles (anything) no mater what and I believe the fish will maybe back away from something wrong with the first fly but will grab the second.

6 weeks ago at Bennett below the apron the fish moved up in the column to feed. I put on a #12 attractor fly (looked like an elk hair caddis with bright body) and a #18 griffets gnat and had a ball. The water was clear but watching the trout they would run to the attractor back away only to hit the gnat. This was almost every cast for 45 to 60 minutes. ( I only wish I could have landed the fish I tried to hook) :^)

Again.. I agree smallest tippet possible for the conditions.

My two bits for what it is worth.

 

[Rip Tide]

"Always use the heaviest tippet that you can get away with"

If there were written fly fishing rules, that would be one of them.

 

[TexUte Fly]

i pretty much just always use 6x tippet but i do enjoy fishing with the lightest tackle i can get away with and ive only been spooled 2 times in my life. once by a dolphin and the 2nd i could not get the fish to turn around with my heavy rod and 20# line. with trout ive hooked a brown i was told was 5-7lbs but it bent my hook straight with 6x tippet. just gotta set the drag a bit lighter.

as far as them seeing the line. i doubt they can but i do imagine thicker line doesnt allow the fly to move as natural as possible, and if its not a natural flow the fish wont hit it. sure the fish has the brain size of a pea but they do have instincts and react to certain things without thinking.

 

[Pocono]

I very rarely go below 5x tippet for trout; 4x whenever I think I'll have a good chance of hooking larger fish.

With smaller fish, I will go to 6x, but only on a very rare occasion; like fishing with Neversink for Yamame/Iwana in the skinny, gin-clear waters of the western/central Japanese mountains.

For the most part, my "drag" is the tension that I apply to the line with my left (stripping) hand as I'm either bringing a fish in or letting it run out. After a few fish, you tend to develop a sense of what kind of tension will break your tippet and what won't.

With constant tension, 5x tippet will take a considerable amount of pressure before it parts. With instantaneous changes in tension, you'll get a lot more broken tippets. That's one of the reasons that I don't let my fish run on me; unless it's a really big one and I don't have any choice.

If you ever see a trout surfing its way across the water and toward a landing net, then there's a good chance that I'm fishing right near where you are.....

Pocono

 

[Sage & Abel]

I go down to 7x on some spring creek trout streams, if I'm fishing small flies, especially. I will not use 6x or 7x on flies larger than a 16 - makes no sense. For trout and steelhead fishing, I have noticed a difference in my success rate based on tippet diameter and when I get below 4x I always fish fluro. YMMV.

Cheers,
Mike.

 

[comeonavs]

I was fishing this weekend with my 1 wt and I usually leave it on 7x tippet since it primarily used for one thing size 18 dries and thats it. Finally after snapping the line a few times on the hook set ( I know I know dont need to set the hook like a bassmaster) I finnaly cut it off and went to 6x. Between my skill level and the minute difference in presentation I will be sticking with 6x only. I might use 7x for just the dropper but I find I dont set the hook as hard when they hit the dropper.

 

[caseywise]

i used to use 6x for fishing for pan fish, but a handful of break offs from bass hookups made me switch to 5x or 4x, depending on the water.
the only time ive used 7x was in a lake that i was sure held no fish more than 10" or so.


casey

 

[Jackster]

Consider the rod you're using and your technique. I use the lightest tippet I think I can get away with. If I am on light 6 or 7X tippet in slow, clear water I know the rod I'm using is forgiving and let it absord the little shakes thrown by the fish. I also get the fish on the too expensive 'line holder' as fast as possible to let the drag do what it is built to do.
Suprisingly, I manage quite a few nice fish on fine leaders but again, I only go that way when it is really neccesary.
Think about it, to be a member of the 20-20 Club you have to be able to stick the tippet through the eye of a hook size 20 or smaller.

 

[dhayden]

including the spring creeks on the Yellowstone near Livingston (Armstrongs, DePuys, and Nelsons).

There's a good book on the Spring Creeks (Buzz has it at his shop on DePuy), explaining his tippet choices and how it affects his drifts. With a light rod he fishes 7x and 8x..
Whole different way to look at things....

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Fly-fishing-Montana-Creeks-Rainbows-Paradise/dp/0741457091"]Amazon.com: Fly-fishing the Montana Spring Creeks...The Rainbows of Paradise (9780741457097): John Mingo: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wQsrkgqPL.@@AMEPARAM@@51wQsrkgqPL[/ame]

 

[Bigfly]

I've used Rip's approach all my career. "always use the heaviest tippet possible"
Heavier leader lets you keep the play-time short.
Playing a fish for a long time isn't good for the fish, and to me, that's the bottom line in a C&R fishery. Or anywhere for that matter.
No matter how much fun it is.
The plot thickens when you face tougher trout in clear/heavier water.
I don't like leaving hooks in fish, so since we can't use too heavy a leader, we work on honing the set with lighter leaders. Very fast, but soft.
This takes some practice. OK, quite a bit....fishing the same rod alot, helps.
Early season I'll go big, since they can't see the leader in off color water.
Right now, it is tough. If I use 5x and a larger fish takes, the fish has the advantage.
If we go 4x we may not get takes from a fish of any size, but I can get them to the net.
I'm talking sub-surface fishing here...
Fishing dries is even worse.
I've mentioned before that the main turnoff (Given a drag free drift.) to fish on the surface, is the leaders shadow.
Sinking monofiliment into the film, is the secret.
You can use heavier tippet, and they can't see it. Fish 5x instead of 6x, etc....
Lay your leader on the surface in very shallow water (8") and check out the resulting horrific shadow on the bottom. Get rid of that shadow, and you will catch more fish.
Try it, and see.
If you dry guys want to go roots, in the UK they call the secret sauce, Fullers Earth.
They've been doing the dry fly thing long enough to know.
Using a wetting agent on my leader allows me to fish 4x with a dry, on heavier "smarter" fish.
Advantage fisherman....
Be good to them.

Jim

 

[kglissmeyer1]

I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet, so here I go. I also subscribe to using the heaviest tippet I can. Two keys to using heavier tippet are: 1- Good presentation resulting in drag-free drift; 2- Using a non-slip mono loop knot ( http://www.orvis.com/orvis_assets/files/Orvis_Knots.swf )to attach your fly, which allows the fly to move with the micro-currents rather than acting like it's stuck to a 2x4. These two things have brought me much success with larger fish and smaller flies.

Kelly

 

[Bigfly]

Kelly, I mentioned #1, and "the knot" is so automatic, I forgot it. Good catch.
Takes a little practice to make them really s-m-a-l-l.
Makes the fly go from dead, to lively...I use it on nymphs and dries.
Jim

 

[kglissmeyer1]

Kelly, I mentioned #1, and "the knot" is so automatic, I forgot it. Good catch.
Takes a little practice to make them really s-m-a-l-l.
Makes the fly go from dead, to lively...I use it on nymphs and dries.
Jim

Yessir, I consider it one of the best things I've ever been taught in flyfishing.

Kelly.

 

[silver creek]

If the fly is acceptable to the fish, I believe most refusals are due to micro drag. The thinner the tippet, the limper it is and this is why I think light tippets are used on drag wary fish. You can reduce drag also by using a longer tippet. So the variables are tippet diameter vs tippet length. The goal is drag elimination.

But I also believe that tippets and their effect on the water surface can be seen and noticed by the fish.

What do I mean by this? Tippets have sheen, they reflect light. Any reflective surface draws attention. Can the fish recognize this reflection as abnormal so that it will refuse a fly based only on this? I think in some situations, over very wary in heavily fished waters, it does occur.

Tippets also have mass regardless of how thin they are. They float on the water surface and they depress it, tilting the water surface just a bit. This causes refraction of the light just like the hackle points that support a fly. This refraction also casts a shadow on the bottom of the stream. I do believe some fish notice this when they are feeding in flat clear water situations that are heavily fished and especially when they are in shallow water. In the shallow they are extremely spooky anyway.

That is why over in Europe where the fish are extremely heavily fished, they use leader degreasers to remove the sheen and get the leaders to sink just below the surface. I think if you can make the leader less apparent to the fish, that is a good thing and I can't think of much of a downside to lowering visibility.

They sure swear by it in Europe.

For more information, there is a discussion and video below:

Degreasing Your Leader - August 2010 TPO Tip of the Month

Degreasing Your Leader ? August 2010 TPO Tip of the Month | The Dark Side Productions

Suggestions for best line degreaser? - Fly Fishing Forums

How do you degrease leaders? - Fly Fishing Forums

 

[Bigfly]

Silver, you called it. The conditions here require much added vigilance.
Very high pressure, clear water. Finny pros.....
My mantra: If I can see my leader, they can.
You can call it a degreaser, or a wetting agent, or a humectant. (Big word of the day.)
The point being, the surface tension is warped by the leaders weight, creating a inordinately large shadow.
5x looks like shoe string from underneath. I use the bottom shadow clinic, instead of asking clients to hold their breath and swim.
Every time I show someone, they say the same thing....OMG!
Whatever product you choose, it allows the leader to sink below/through the surface tension.
Now.... no shadow, or sheen.
A natural outcrop of clay may work for free, or you can use rubbing alcohol in a pinch..... I have wondered about t-paste.
The makers of Gerkes Gink, make a Sink as well. (Was like alcohol, but more pricey.)
Fullers earth is the Brits solution, ours is Snake River Mud. (Loon)
If you have the right bug, and a good drift, this is the solution to recalcitrant Trout.
We get better action on overcast days, partly, because the leader shadow is missing.
Use the mud, and you can get love, at highnoon......

Watched Brit and fishing guru, Oliver Edwards, mud the lower half of his emerger too. Just a thought.

Jim

 

[Sage & Abel]

This is one of the best threads I've read in a while :thumbsupu

 

[Jackster]

But I also believe that tippets and their effect on the water surface can be seen and noticed by the fish.

What do I mean by this? Tippets have sheen, they reflect light. Any reflective surface draws attention.

The SA/3M fly line cleaning pads that I always carry in my vest help take the sheen off.

 

[silver creek]

Two obvious and well discussed issues affecting tippet visibility are tippet diameter and the refractive index of nylon mono vs fluorocarabon. Those have been well discussed. They are the main factors affecting visibility, but they are not the only issues that can determine whether a fish notices the leader or not.

Leader degreasers are used to minimize several other factors.

First is the shiny coating or sheen of the surface of leaders and tippets. The clay grit in degreasers roughs up the surface.

Secondly, the manufacturing process can leave a thin oily or waxy coating on leaders and tippets. The detergent in leader degreasers (didn't you wonder why they were called degreasers) removes this residual coating that can prevent the fresh leader from sinking.

Thirdly, the surface tension of water can float a leader that has had been "degreased". Surface tension can float a needle so it has no problem floating a tippet. To destroy the surface tension that supports the leader, a surfactant is needed. Detergents are a surfactants so the detergent does double duty.

Finally, a compound is added that prevents the degreaser from drying out.

As Jackster mentioned, the SA pad that cleans fly lines can also remove the sheen from leaders.

Bigfly mentioned Gerkes Xink for sinking flies and leaders. It is a surfactant but it is not a degreaser or sheen remover.

For those of you that use Xink, there is a cheap substitute just like there is for Gink. Xink is a wetting agent and you can substitute Kodak Photo-Flo which is a photographic wetting agent. The active agent in Photo-Flo is ethylene glycol. Ethylene glycol is the active agent in automotive antifreeze. So automotive antifreeze can be used in the place of Gerkes Xink.

For more information on degreasers, I have posted a home made formula that you can make from stuff around the house.

http://www.southeastflyfishingforum.com/forum/leader-degreaser-and-making-your-own-t38654.html

 

[Bigfly]

Silver, thanks for spelling correction, I can't think of everything!
Didn't like Xink or alcohol, wears off too fast. Doesn't kill sheen either.
Was a photo guy so I tried that too.
Mud is organic, so I feel OK about putting it in the water.
Hides sheen, sinks leader, just takes disipline to use it..

Jim