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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Grand canyon of Pa.

    Default Re: A Step Further.. What if we stocked Bugs?

    We have screwed with nature enough already, let things be and nature will do the work if its feasible. don't mess with mother nature...
    sandfly/ bob
    N.J.B.B.A. #2215

    I did not escape.....they gave me a day pass!
    from the outer edge of nowhere
    fly tying and fishing Gillie..

  2. Likes jaybo41, dean_mt, theboz liked this post
  3. #22

    Default Re: A Step Further.. What if we stocked Bugs?

    Quote Originally Posted by dean_mt View Post
    Really? So was there once a good hatch of salmonflies in the river? Or is Colorado just over-managing the resource again to create a "better" fishing experience and more business? As if the Arkansas River needs it.


    Well a quick google answered my question. The Colorado Parks and Wildlife's "Upper Arkansas River Management Implications" states that is has long been "suggested to introduce a large forage item into the Arkansas River biota to boost trout growth and fitness." They decided the pteronarcys californica best fit the bill ... which I reckon is better than some foreign shrimp or such thing. But I find this messing with the ecology of a river for simple human pleasure gain a slippery slope.

    It's on page 6.

    It is my understanding that prior to the mining pollution, there was a salmonfly hatch on the Arkansas. The quote that you offer does not appear to be inconsistent with this.

  4. #23

    Default Re: A Step Further.. What if we stocked Bugs?

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetandsalt View Post
    Many relevant points have been made here already but I want to go on record with a provocative remark I like to make among fisheries types; "I'm in favor of stocking", I proclaim...then shocked silence and gasps of disbelief..."mayflies."
    Yeah, I enjoyed that.

    Great conversation. The more I read the more I realize that we will be having this conversation, or one very similar, again down the road, like it or not.

    My mind is going in some many directions right now, are tail-waters even ethical? should we be playing god and if we do how far should we go? globalization of the natural world? Maybe its just a form natural selection? managing fisheries one species at a time SMH? but I think they are all new threads for another time.

    It all brings me back to the fact, that these are all human impacts, which will result in human responses, and will be guided by people with interests and who have had conversations like these.

    Fly Fishermen are the best. Props to the forum.

    P.S. I'll never be able to talk people into stocking bugs on my little gem of a river and I do love our little trout.
    Last edited by only adipose; 12-03-2013 at 10:37 PM.
    “Do not tell fish stories where the people know you; but particularly, don’t tell them where they know the fish.”

  5. Default Re: A Step Further.. What if we stocked Bugs?

    Three threatening letters, "G,M,O"

  6. #25

    Default Re: A Step Further.. What if we stocked Bugs?

    I should note for perspective that my home water, tail waters in the upper Delaware, enjoy the full panoply of famed Eastern mayfly emergences. Paraleps, Quill Gordans, Hendricksons and related species (E.subvaria, invaria, unclassified "X", etc.) all the wonderful Stenos...March Browns, Grey Fox and Cahills, followed by E. cornuta (#14 BWO), Sulphurs (E. dorothea) locally called Doros, Green and Brown Drakes, tricos and all the smaller summer insects too (psudocloeon, baetis, etc.). Not to mention stoneflies from the tiny early blacks to the giant Eastern Pteronarcys and all those caddis flies too. I am leaving many out and no doubt miss spelling many too. Further, the upper Delaware watershed enjoys a Culture of Aquatic Entomology. Though he no longer owns it, Al Caucci of Hatches fame, trained many of the guides and anglers on the River out of his former, Delaware River Club and Fly Fishing School, and instilled a serious sense of mayfly-centric head hunting in them. Anglers including the commercial guides do not keep bankers hours during the mayfly season on this river, regularly staying out into darkness to meet specific spinner falls. When you read the DRC's daily river report blog, the current hatches are referred to by their Latin names. This is not a river where "Buzz Balls" and "Fuzzy Faces" are knotted onto tippets; this is a 5' of tippet and match-the-hatch environment both for angling effectiveness and cultural appropriateness. Even the local bar and burger joint remains open and cooking until the last angler is off the water with lots of camaraderie and lies peaking around 11PM.

    The greatness of the upper Delaware fishery is a man made function of New York City having built bottom release dams for urban water supply on a formerly marginal trout and small mouth bass fishery. Its wild strain non-migratory California rainbows and European brown trout were introduced in the 1880's and hung on until NY came along and built its dams so they might flourish. Not that this was the City's intent and a continuous battle between urban water use planners and conservation and fly fishing organizations is waged...I will be in attendance in a NYC restaurant for a new combat offensive tomorrow morning. In the Delaware's case, mayflies need not have been stocked as its watershed enjoys, in its headwaters, famed trout streams like the Willowemoc, Beaverkill and Neversink and many lesser known streams from which to recruit the broad spectrum of classic hatches...not all dam created, cold tail waters have such resources.

    Great tail waters like the Bighorn are isolated from quality trout streams and therefore lack, not habitat, but entomological diversity that they could easily and beneficially support. In the majority of our man-made quality fisheries, none-native browns and rainbows had to be introduced for us to enjoy the angling opportunities we enjoy today. Why not mayflies?

    West Branch of the Delaware in May

  7. #26

    Default Re: A Step Further.. What if we stocked Bugs?

    Anybody know about the negative effects of Mysis in Lakes? I would love to see some Mysis put in the lakes above some already good tailwaters...

  8. #27

    Default Re: A Step Further.. What if we stocked Bugs?

    Mysis in lakes is a bad idea. It has had a negative impact on the north Idaho lakes. The mysis compete with the zoo plankton that the Kokanee feed on.

    With regards to other insects, Cache valley anglers did a stocking of Salmonflies in the Logan river from the Nearby Blacksmith fork river. However this stocking was done under the eye of a trained entomologist from USU.

    They studied historical journals to find out the Salmonflies had once been abundant on the Logan river. For some unkown reason they dissappeared. They then raised Salmonflies in traps to make sure they could survive. For several years nympns and later adults were transferred to the Logan. I have not heard an update in several years on this.

    One of the biggest issues in changes in insect communities is changes in water temperature. In some cases the colder water does not allow for certain insects to complete their life cycle. Lee's Ferry is the perfect example of water being so cold that basically no mayflies survive.

    Another is oxygen content of the water below a reservoir. Some older reservoirs may have oxygen problems leading to the dissappearance of certain species. A good example of this is the Provo river in Utah. The middle has it's full compliment of insects. The dam is designed with a selective withdrawal feature. The water is then sprayed onto a plate so that it immediatly gets the proper levels of O2. Green Drakes abound on the middle, but are rarely seen on the lower.

    What I am trying to say is this is something that is being done, but it must be done under supervision with a lot of study, and it may not work.

  9. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Western Montana

    Default Re: A Step Further.. What if we stocked Bugs?

    Quote Originally Posted by djergensen View Post
    Anybody know about the negative effects of Mysis in Lakes? I would love to see some Mysis put in the lakes above some already good tailwaters..

    Dave is right. Please do not release foreign aquatics into a water source. Read this article on the study done at Flathead Lake, the chain reaction of a Mysis shrimp introduction is stunning.

    Flathead Lake study points to shrimp as cause of decline in biological diversity

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