Hopper with a Dropper

[french]

I am new to fly fishing and trout as of this summer (June) and in the past month I have started to try out nymphs with pretty good success especially when the trout aren't rising.

I have been casting a hopper as an indicator with a nymph dropper and am getting hits on the hopper, but most often on the nymph. I am currently using a 8'6" 4W rod with WF4F line, a 4X leader ranging from 6 - 9' in length (depending on how often a tree comes out of nowhere and trims it down some) and then another 2-3' of 4X tippet to the hopper and 14 - 18" of 6X tippet to the nymph.

The past two times I have been out I have hooked a larger 11 -13" trout each outing by a fin. They are large for me anyways. In both instances I have cast upstream on a 45 degree angle and let the rig drift to 45 degrees downstream. At the end i lift my rod tip softly (6 inches at the most). The first was a rainbow i hooked right where the lower portion of the tail meets the body. The second was in the middle of the dorsal fin where it meets the body of a beautiful brown. In both cases the fish were released safely, and swam away quickly on their own power.

So to the point: What am I doing wrong where I am hooking the fish this way? Is this normal? Any tips for not hooking them in this manner?

Thank you in advance for helping out a newby!

 

[jjparson]

Foul hooking a fish when using two flies is not uncommon. I think what often happens is that the fish has actually came up to check out the dry (in your case hopper) and then when sliding back down or turning gets hung up on the nymph. I do not know of any ways to avoid this aside from fishing with one fly instead of two.

 

[guest64]

Foul hooking a fish when using two flies is not uncommon. I think what often happens is that the fish has actually came up to check out the dry (in your case hopper) and then when sliding back down or turning gets hung up on the nymph. I do not know of any ways to avoid this aside from fishing with one fly instead of two.

I agree. This happens from time to with tandem flies whether two nymphs or dry with nymph dropper.

One thing that may help a little is to increase your dropper tippet length. Then a fish that inspects but rejects the dry has a little more time to get out of the way of the dropper.

Otherwise, just make sure your flies are barbless, play and release any foul hooked fish quickly, and don't worry about it.

 

[ts47]

I agree. This happens from time to with tandem flies whether two nymphs or dry with nymph dropper.

One thing that may help a little is to increase your dropper tippet length. Then a fish that inspects but rejects the dry has a little more time to get out of the way of the dropper.

Otherwise, just make sure your flies are barbless, play and release any foul hooked fish quickly, and don't worry about it.

+1 to both.

Keep in mind... Depending on where the fish are in the water colum, emerged versus nymph for example, your nymphs should be at or very near the bottom.

 

[silver creek]

Foul hooking a fish when using two flies is not uncommon. I think what often happens is that the fish has actually came up to check out the dry (in your case hopper) and then when sliding back down or turning gets hung up on the nymph. I do not know of any ways to avoid this aside from fishing with one fly instead of two.

Exactly right!

The key is that the flies were at an angle to you downstream when this happened.

A trout comes up for the hopper. The nymph is trailing the hopper and is deeper. So the tippet from the hopper to the dropper nymph can be angled over the top of the fish. When you strike or lift and the trout has not taken or refused the hopper, the tippet from the hopper to the nymph slides over the fish to your side and the nymph hooks the dorsal fin. This is typical way that foul hooking on the dorsal fins happens with a hooper dropper of even with a stike indicator rig when the fish hits the indicator.

In the other case of the hooking at the back of the fish. If that was on the top of the fish, the mechanism is the same. If it was on the bottom of the fish at the tail, it was hooked I think as the fish came up at the end of your drift and as the fish was chasing the hooper, the nymph drifted under the fish and hooked the fish as you lifted the rod.

I would not worry about it. It happens in nymphing with double nymph rigs and it is typcally the trailing nymph that foul hooks the fish. The fish goes for the first nymph that reaches it, the fish refuses; but gets hooked by the second nymph.

 

[diamond rush]

If fish are rising to your hopper pattern and refusing it, maybe you should focus on changing your hopper pattern to one closer to what the trout are looking for.

 

[cpowell]

A couple of points.

The op is doing a very good job based on his description. I applaud you and your success is a testament to that effect, many folks do not manage fish when starting out their nymphing journey and it sours them towards that method.

A good point was made by ts47, I start at the bottom and work my way up the column. I will commonly continue to fish the nymphs while coming up higher in the column, current and migration are other factors along with emergence that dictate where the insects will be flowing in the column. When you have scenarios where you can be at the river during migration or emergence you can start to fish wet flies such as soft hackles. This type of fishing is fantastic exercise for your eyes. You will notice fish more than the fly when fish are active. It's a new visual perspective and very productive. Keeps your reflexes sharp as well.

Hopper is one of the very most common droppers rigs...because it floats like an indicator. Many dry flies will not handle the resistance of the point nymph or nymphs.

A lot of the technical waters that hold big fish will not feed under a big or dry fly. And of course when fishing fast water or deep water when needing to get down quickly even the hoppers or large dries are more of a burden than a help, but I still use them..or at least some big foam thing I created to be a combination of both.

Late summer on our western rivers is a spectacular hopper dropper time because fish are in the shallows ambushing hoppers and so depth is usually easy to deal with.

now to make a short response even longer... Yes foul hooking is common with this type of fishing.

 

[french]

If fish are rising to your hopper pattern and refusing it, maybe you should focus on changing your hopper pattern to one closer to what the trout are looking for.

I was contemplating this very thought. I wasn't sure which fly the fish were refusing until reading the other responses. I typically have a hit or two on the hopper when I go out, but lately the fish have not been rising while I have been using this set up. I will have to experiment further with the three or four terrestrial flies I have.

Thank you to everyone who responded, it really does help. Its nice to have a place to bounce ideas and questions off of.

---------- Post added at 03:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:48 PM ----------

A good point was made by ts47, I start at the bottom and work my way up the column. I will commonly continue to fish the nymphs while coming up higher in the column, current and migration are other factors along with emergence that dictate where the insects will be flowing in the column. When you have scenarios where you can be at the river during migration or emergence you can start to fish wet flies such as soft hackles. This type of fishing is fantastic exercise for your eyes. You will notice fish more than the fly when fish are active. It's a new visual perspective and very productive. Keeps your reflexes sharp as well.

I have a couple of spots I know fish reside, and will try this the next time out. By that I mean lengthening the dropper tippet to 3' and then casting out and periodically shortening by 4 - 6" after a number of presentations.

Thanks!

 

[silver creek]

A hopper dropper is not really a nymphing system that is good at starting deep and working up.

A hopper dropper is a method of giving the fish a second fly to hit once it comes up for the hopper. Answer this question - do you think you would ever catch a fish on the dropper IF the hopper was a strike indicator rather than a fly? Do you really think the fish are feeding and looking for naturals at the depth of the dropper? If your answer is no, then the hopper dropper targets fish that are:

1. Looking up and
2. Not too deep to rise for the hopper

This means a hopper dropper system is most effective in water that is not too fast AND not too deep for a fish holding on the bottom to rise through for the hopper.

A hopper dropper has very little chance of success in deep fast flows. I use knee deep fast water as my limit. If the water is both deeper than just above knee deep and fast, the hopper dropper is unlikely to succeed.

In fast deep water, you can use a hopper dropper BUT it has to be targeted at pocket water where the fish can hold higher sheltered from the the fast flows. This is pocket water around boulders, logs, the bank, etc — it can be in front of, behind or to the side of boulders. I use this strategy to target these areas in fast deep flows because a hopper dropper is normally not used to fish fast deep water.

If you want to fish deep in waters that are fast and deeper than knee deep, a hopper dropper is not the best way. The reason is that the dropper has to be heavy enough to sink to the bottom fast so it spends the maximum amount of time drifting near the bottom. If it is heavy enough to sink fast, it will probably be too heavy for the hopper to support. So I think in these situations it is better to use a strike indicator that can support the nymph(s) and to use a double nymph rig.

If you are not catching fish on the hopper at all and are catching all the fish on the nymphs, put the odds in your favor by going to a double nymph and indicator nymphing system right away.

Another advantage of a indicator and double nymph situation wne startign deep is that to fish the nymphs eccectively, you will have to mend the indicator/hopper. A mend of the hopper to get the dropper(s) to drift drag free on a deep drift really is not the way you want a hopper to drift if you want to get strikes on the hopper.

 

[cpowell]

Yes, I apologize if I did not discern between nymphing and hopper dropper. These are two vastly different methods.

The hopper is not a fly that is used most times of the year and when fish are in the mode for surface bugs such as hoppers they are typically within reach of a hopper's dropper. Fish will likely stage near the bank for this type of food source as well as other ambush-able critters. I only fish a hopper or large dry fly as a dropper when it is the right time of year and the right location on the water I am fishing.

The fish you fish to, will allow either big indicators that are easy to see and float, to very small indicators or possibly no indicator for best results.

As with all nymphing the depth is typically critical as well as a natural drift. The faster and deeper the water the less important the drift becomes and the depth becomes the most important factor. If it is deep and slow the drift can still play a very important role.

My point was that when starting to fish below surface you should pick a depth to start and work to the opposite end of that spectrum until the most active fish are located. Commonly you will find that the best location is not on the bottom.