Elk Hair Caddis taken on the swing: what's up?

[MichaelCPA]

Happening a few times, my lazy casting and inattention has caught fish when my caddis fly swings, drowned, and is taken after a slight rise.

I imagine this is a wet fly opportunity, and the olive or tan may be confused as smolt or a swimming nymph. Right under the film.

Would there be any suggestions to set up for this scenario? Likely part of my education on emergers and wet fly swinging. When the fish are actively rising but no visible hatch and they aren't taking BWO, Trico dry flies.

Thanks!!

 

[Ard]

I won't speculate too much as to the why but can tell you that I caught many a trout as evening fell as my #18 blue quill hung straight down current and submerged. Many times all that remained on the hook were the mallard quill wings due to the pounding the fly took in the time leading up to darkness. When the fish were feeding the last thing I would choose to do was replace a worn fly so I used them until they were a bare hook.

The grab as they swung into the dangle position I can't explain but once I knew it could happen I fished every cast fully because it was clear that there were fish right below me also. One of my unspoken rules is to not question good fortune. Instead, commit the circumstances to memory and look to repeat things at a future time.

 

[jeep.ster]

EHC is my favorite drowned fly. I've caught many trout dry fly fishing when my ehc goes under and usually gets the biggest fish out of the pool, run etc. When it goes under I keep a tight line and stay ready for the tug.

 

[coug]

The "perfect" drift with a caddis during a hatch is often skittering across the surface, drowned, etc. You were probably doing a good emerger imitation. Either that or fish have the brains the size of a peanut and us fisherman really overthink things!

 

[Bigfly]

Unlike Ard, I do look a gift horse in the mouth. I need to know why I catch...accidental fish annoy me, I fish purposefully, and so I spend a lot of time trying to figure it out.
I can't speculate on what's happening were you are, but here the Caddis free drift for a ways before they swim to the surface. I think the fish see the silhouette of the bug against the sky. Movement is a trigger for a predator.
They also prefer a bug that is stuck in the film. (Easy prey). Half in half out....
Ralph Cutter has an EC (Emerger Cripple) Caddis pattern that works well when Caddis are popping.
I really like to fish on the swing with a dry.....my only add advice, strip set for best results.

Jim

 

[flytie09]

You've discovered the beauty of fishing a dry caddis on the swing. It simulates an emerging caddis pupae which quickly try to swim to the surface to take flight and do their thing.

Pupae, Cases & Tent Wings - Page 2 of 2 - American AnglerAmerican Angler

I don't know if I would necessarily target this as a standard approach with a dry elk hair caddis...but it never hurts to try. More likely, when all else is failing..... tie on a soft hackle and swing it to mimic a caddis or mayfly emerging to the surface. Soft hackles look very similar to a water logged dry swung under tension.

Emerger specific patterns in general are normally fished in the film or slightly below the surface and dead drifted. But, imparting a little motion during or towards the end of the drift can trigger the cat and mouse response of a trout to a fleeing whatever.

 

[MichaelCPA]

Thank you all, great ideas and knowledge here as always.

 

[strmanglr scott]

Unlike Ard, I do look a gift horse in the mouth. I need to know why I catch...accidental fish annoy me, I fish purposefully, and so I spend a lot of time trying to figure it out.
I can't speculate on what's happening were you are, but here the Caddis free drift for a ways before they swim to the surface. I think the fish see the silhouette of the bug against the sky. Movement is a trigger for a predator.
They also prefer a bug that is stuck in the film. (Easy prey). Half in half out....
Ralph Cutter has an EC (Emerger Cripple) Caddis pattern that works well when Caddis are popping.
I really like to fish on the swing with a dry.....my only add advice, strip set for best results.

Jim

Lol, the fish is hungry and an opportunist, it's gonna bite. I'm convinced even an old fish doesn't know it's seen every type of food and if something looks edible, its gonna try it in the right setting/presentation.

First brookie I caught my royal coachman dry was swinging throwing a wake.

 

[redietz]

In fact, Al Troth originally intended the EHC as a wet fly. He couldn't get it to sink very well and ended up just calling it a dry fly.

I fish it wet (with a piece of shot to sink it) as often as I do dry. When you think about, real caddis are seldom floating gently down the stream - they fly off almost immediately upon hatching.

The more intriguing question to me is not why it works wet, but why it works so well dry.

BTW, a dark one can be a very effective fly fished on the swing when there are little brown stone flies present.

 

[MichaelCPA]

In fact, Al Troth originally intended the EHC as a wet fly. He couldn't get it to sink very well and ended up just calling it a dry fly.

I fish it wet (with a piece of shot to sink it) as often as I do dry. When you think about, real caddis are seldom floating gently down the stream - they fly off almost immediately upon hatching.

The more intriguing question to me is not why it works wet, but why it works so well dry.

BTW, a dark one can be a very effective fly fished on the swing when there are little brown stone flies present.

Excellent history and knowledge. Agree that caddis aren't seen floating on the surface. But they certainly work in many applications! Always good to try on those 'nothing is working' days.

 

[Ard]

Hi Michael and everyone else too

I think it's safe to say most of us have heard of the Leisenring lift technique for fishing wet flies. While I'm aware of the story and technique I don't automatically assume that a fish categorizes any fly before they grab it. Trust me when I say that I didn't blindly accept those fish that I caught as dumb luck, I had a slight suspicion as to why they bit and I used the same approach over and over for years. My original post was meant to be simple and not to go straight to the hair splitting over what may have led to yours or my successes.

 

[dillon]

My favorite time to fish caddis is when the fish are sipping spent caddis on the surface. This is when a good dead drift presentation is important. During a hatch I usually observe trout feeding on emergers subsurface or in the film. The bugs are actively moving so perhaps skating a fly is a good technique. When the insect emerges into the adult stage they don't seem to spend much time on the surface. They just seem to pop and fly off. During the hatch I don't see the EHC as a very good imitation to match the hatch, especially if the surface is smooth. I see them more as a riffle water searching pattern. Personally I never fish one. Maybe a sparkle caddis during a hatch so it's tail and body break the surface with only the wing above it.

 

[Ard]

I had a thought that may or may not be worth sharing, here goes...…..

I have seen people here in Alaska catch both trout and salmon using a hook with red yarn knotted to it and the fish hit it both on dead drift and swing. Weird. It may be safe to say that when a fish has determined that it will bite the next thing it sees coming its way they do it.

 

[upstreamcast]

Swinging an EHC works. Try Wet Fly technique with a size 14-16 Griffith's Gnat. Works when not much else will.

 

[silver creek]

Happening a few times, my lazy casting and inattention has caught fish when my caddis fly swings, drowned, and is taken after a slight rise.

I imagine this is a wet fly opportunity, and the olive or tan may be confused as smolt or a swimming nymph. Right under the film.

Would there be any suggestions to set up for this scenario? Likely part of my education on emergers and wet fly swinging. When the fish are actively rising but no visible hatch and they aren't taking BWO, Trico dry flies.

Thanks!!

From what you have written, I cannot be sure that this behavior means anything other than opportunistic feeding behavior.

Trout have no hands so they use their mouths to see if something is food vs not food.

If this happens reliably during a caddis hatch or caddis egg laying then I would say this is consistent with selective feeding. There are caddis species dive under to lay eggs so trout will feed on the underwater egg layers during egg laying or after the egg layers have died underwater.

Non diving spent caddis are taken as spent caddis on the surface just like spent mayflies.

Here’s my thought about your observation. If this happened during a caddis hatch it likely is related to the hatch with the trout taking the fly opportunistically OR as a rising caddis pupa. If it happened when there was not hatch, it is no different than if you were fishing the caddis on the surface and a fish took the fly. This is opportunistic feeding behavior. Because it happened underwater does not, in my opinion give it any specific significance.

In either case the fish saw/noticed your fly, thought it could be food, and sampled the drift.

If you cannot reliably PREDICT when the fish are LIKELY to feed on a fly fished in a certain manner, then your experience has NO PREDICTIVE VALUE. Then it is likely a random occurrence.

What I am suggesting is that you can be absolutely right that “the olive or tan may be confused as smolt or a swimming nymph” but unless you can PREDICT when this will happen, you cannot use this information to gain an edge in deciding when to use this tactic.

If this happens reliably during a specific hatch or egg laying, then this becomes a fishing strategy.

I hope that makes some logical sense.

 

[redietz]

Swinging an EHC works. Try Wet Fly technique with a size 14-16 Griffith's Gnat. Works when not much else will.

View attachment 18664

A Renegade is another good fly that is often regarded as a dry that fishes at least as well wet on the swing.

 

[pickadrake]

Earlier this summer when the caddis in my area were hatching in good numbers I had good luck fishing an CDC caddis both dead drift dry and swung in the film at the end of the drift. The takes on the swing were more fun!

 

[silver creek]

In fact, Al Troth originally intended the EHC as a wet fly. He couldn't get it to sink very well and ended up just calling it a dry fly.

I fish it wet (with a piece of shot to sink it) as often as I do dry. When you think about, real caddis are seldom floating gently down the stream - they fly off almost immediately upon hatching.

The more intriguing question to me is not why it works wet, but why it works so well dry.

BTW, a dark one can be a very effective fly fished on the swing when there are little brown stone flies present.

I read that as well:

"Al Troth’s Elk-Hair Caddis.... first came to the fly-fishing public’s attention in a 1978 article in Fly Tyer (but which Troth had been tying for some years).In the article, Troth claimed that he had set out to develop a wet fly for his Pennsylvania streams, but his design ended up floating so well that he stuck with it."

Remembering Al Troth, Inventor of the Elk-Hair Caddis - Orvis News

However, I think don't think he started to design a wet fly but then perfected a dry fly.

The reason I doubt it is that the modern EHC of today is that the fly now known as the EHC has a body with palmered dry fly hackle. I can't imagine a fly tyer of Al Troth's knowledge putting palmered dry fly hackle on a wet fly design.

I have a copy of the 1978 issue of Fly Tyer Volume 1 issue 2. Unfortunately it is not the one with the article so I cannot confirm my suspicion.

My other reason for doubting this wet fly origin theory is that supposedly Al Troth's inspiration was GEM Skues "little red sedge fly" which is definitley a dry fly and Troth would have known that.

"The fly was inspired by several palmered flies Troth like to fish and G. E. M. Skues' Little Red Sedge fly which featured a hair wing."

Elk Hair Caddis - Wikipedia

"The most popular caddisfly imitation today is probably Al Troth’s Elk Hair Caddis, a high floating design floated by stiff rooster hackle palmered along the full length of the body. Troth credits G.E.M. Skues and his Little Red Sedge for inspiration when designing the Elk Hair Caddis in 1957. Troth admired the excellent floatation of the Little Red Sedge and the way in which Skues secured the palmered body hackle with fine gold wire. Troth replaced Skues’ wing of feather barbs with a material more easily obtained, and he eliminated the collar of hackle. Otherwise, the patterns are much the same."

Little Red Sedge – Southern Wisconsin Trout Unlimited

"Troth created the pattern and first fished it in 1957 on Loyalsock Creek in eastern Pennsylvania. The fly was inspired by several palmered flies Troth like to fish and G. E. M. Skues' Little Red Sedge fly which featured a hair wing."

ELK HAIR CADDIS - Ugly Bug Fly Shop

My position is that both of these origin stories of the EHC cannot be true. I think the fact that the EHC design is very close to Skues little red sedge validates this origin story. The palmered wire holding down the hackle seals the deal for me. Compare the Little Red Sedge hackling method with the EHC.

Here is an interview with Al Troth and his son, Eric Troth. Begin listening at 2:44 when Eric describes Al Troth fishing the EHC as a dry fly. He doesn't go into the history of the fly. At 5:26 is an original EHC tied by Al Troth. This fly design could not be mistaken for a wet fly in my opinion.



YouTube

 

[silver creek]

Happening a few times, my lazy casting and inattention has caught fish when my caddis fly swings, drowned, and is taken after a slight rise.

I imagine this is a wet fly opportunity, and the olive or tan may be confused as smolt or a swimming nymph. Right under the film.

Would there be any suggestions to set up for this scenario? Likely part of my education on emergers and wet fly swinging. When the fish are actively rising but no visible hatch and they aren't taking BWO, Trico dry flies.

Thanks!!

Michael,

When the fish are rising and you don't see a hatch, rather than fish a wet fly, this is an opportunity to figure out what they are eating. You need a strategy for this type of situation.

First - I noticed that you never described a rise. Not all rises are equal. Examine the type and location of the rises.

You need to study the "rise form." Just as a fly fisher "reads the water" for the potential holding areas of trout, you "read the rise" for the location of the food that the fish ate.

There are three locations at which fish take flies during emergence - UNDER, IN, or ON the surface film. You need to determine whether the fish took the insect under film, in the film, or on top of the film.

If you look very carefully, you can tell how the fish took the aquatic insect, and where the insect was in the water column.

Here is an illustration from Field and Stream that shows:

1. A sipping rise to an insect trapped in or on the film, fine rings in the water = emerger, stillborn emerger, spinner, some small midges.

2. The slurping rise leaves a bubble, the fish's mouth breaks the surface to take a fully emerged insect = mayfly duns and other insects that have fully hatched.

3. The splashy rise, the fish slashes at the fly = typically a rise to caddis that can fly off immediately or a large terrestrial on the water like a grasshopper. The fish want the insect not to escape OR wants to beat another fish to the food.

4. The boil or head and shoulder rise. The water bulges but the fish's mouth does not break the water. The fish's shoulder or dorsal fin may break the water as the fish heads back down = The fish is feeding below the surface chasing nymphs or pupa that are rising in the water column to hatch. They are intercepting the food on the way to the surface and overshoot and break the surface or cause a bulge of water.

If you spend some time carefully looking at "rising" fish, you will notice that during a hatch, there can be different rise forms. Not all the fish will necessarily be feeing on the same stage of insect.

This is why some fly fishers will put on a specific fly and catch some of the rising fish, but then that fly stops "working" and they wonder why. It is because that fly imitated a certain stage of emergence and caught the fish that were taking that stage but it does not imitate the star that the other fish are feeding on.

Identify the rise forms and then from the rise forms, decide what stage of the insect the fish is feeding on.

Second - Then examine the location of the rises - For example a sipping rise in the back eddies could be the fish are eating spinner. Rises near the shore could be to terrestrials like ants or beetles.

You get the idea. From the rise form and the location of the rises you decide what fly you need to use and where to use it.

Third - Then there using a bug net to sample the drift. You could done this to find what was in the drift and choose the appropriate fly and fish that fly at the appropriate level with the appropropriate technique.

https://www.theflyfishingforum.com/...on/803759-trout-ungrateful-2.html#post1421058

Fourth - You lost an opportunity to learn. Since you did catch a fish, that would have been a perfect opportunity use a throat pump to sample what that fish had fed on.

fishing emergers

There are plenty of other options than committing to wet flies when you see fish rising and can't catch the risers. I think this is situation is a perfect opportunity to learn what is really happening.

 

[MichaelCPA]

Michael,

When the fish are rising and you don't see a hatch, rather than fish a wet fly, this is an opportunity to figure out what they are eating. You need a strategy for this type of situation.

First - I noticed that you never described a rise. Not all rises are equal. Examine the type and location of the rises.

You need to study the "rise form." Just as a fly fisher "reads the water" for the potential holding areas of trout, you "read the rise" for the location of the food that the fish ate.

There are three locations at which fish take flies during emergence - UNDER, IN, or ON the surface film. You need to determine whether the fish took the insect under film, in the film, or on top of the film.

If you look very carefully, you can tell how the fish took the aquatic insect, and where the insect was in the water column.

Here is an illustration from Field and Stream that shows:

1. A sipping rise to an insect trapped in or on the film, fine rings in the water = emerger, stillborn emerger, spinner, some small midges.

2. The slurping rise leaves a bubble, the fish's mouth breaks the surface to take a fully emerged insect = mayfly duns and other insects that have fully hatched.

3. The splashy rise, the fish slashes at the fly = typically a rise to caddis that can fly off immediately or a large terrestrial on the water like a grasshopper. The fish want the insect not to escape OR wants to beat another fish to the food.

4. The boil or head and shoulder rise. The water bulges but the fish's mouth does not break the water. The fish's shoulder or dorsal fin may break the water as the fish heads back down = The fish is feeding below the surface chasing nymphs or pupa that are rising in the water column to hatch. They are intercepting the food on the way to the surface and overshoot and break the surface or cause a bulge of water.

If you spend some time carefully looking at "rising" fish, you will notice that during a hatch, there can be different rise forms. Not all the fish will necessarily be feeing on the same stage of insect.

This is why some fly fishers will put on a specific fly and catch some of the rising fish, but then that fly stops "working" and they wonder why. It is because that fly imitated a certain stage of emergence and caught the fish that were taking that stage but it does not imitate the star that the other fish are feeding on.

Identify the rise forms and then from the rise forms, decide what stage of the insect the fish is feeding on.

Second - Then examine the location of the rises - For example a sipping rise in the back eddies could be the fish are eating spinner. Rises near the shore could be to terrestrials like ants or beetles.

You get the idea. From the rise form and the location of the rises you decide what fly you need to use and where to use it.

Third - Then there using a bug net to sample the drift. You could done this to find what was in the drift and choose the appropriate fly and fish that fly at the appropriate level with the appropropriate technique.

https://www.theflyfishingforum.com/...on/803759-trout-ungrateful-2.html#post1421058

Fourth - You lost an opportunity to learn. Since you did catch a fish, that would have been a perfect opportunity use a throat pump to sample what that fish had fed on.

fishing emergers

There are plenty of other options than committing to wet flies when you see fish rising and can't catch the risers. I think this is situation is a perfect opportunity to learn what is really happening.

Thank you, this is very informative and a whole lot of learning is in front of me. I can think of many other outings where the rises are among all four you describe.

I have caught more fish on wet flies, both well under and just under (in?) the film when not much else is working. The study of the waters, its insects would lead to better understanding of emergers and when to execute them. That is the toughest method to master in my opinion!