You may not be able to go far ... Electric cars.

[fredaevans]

First time I've seen a apples to apples (to a degree) of electric cars. Given the limited range of most (all electric) a petrol motor is a most need. What drew me up short was the price of some of these:yikes:

Which electric cars have the most range? | Features | missoulian.com

Love the SW Montana news papers, stuff you'll never read anyplace else in 'general news.'

 

[itchmesir]

A 60w lightbulb ran for 12 hours uses roughly 60L of water. Now the average electric car uses 30kWh per 100mi... Feel free to do the math... But I don't find that any more "enviromentally friendly" until we really latch on to renewable energy sources.

 

[fredaevans]

A 60w lightbulb ran for 12 hours uses roughly 60L of water. Now the average electric car uses 30kWh per 100mi... Feel free to do the math... But I don't find that any more "enviromentally friendly" until we really latch on to renewable energy sources.

+1 here.

Neighbor across the street purchased an electric car and the first thing he does when he gets home is plug the car into an electric out let. By observation (and a couple of comments I've read) it takes upwards of 12 hours to recharge the battery pack on 110 volts; about half that if you have 220. I'd rather just pull in and fill up the tank with a few dollars worth of Petrol.

Just a thought here but at some point those bat's are going to need replacing .... 'At what price Glory?'

:yikes: is my guess given the cost of a good 'standard' auto battery.

 

[itchmesir]

From my understanding the newer batteries do last longer than when they first came out but I think they're still outrageously expensive... Somewhere around $3k? Then there's the environmental impact of all the precious metals that go into the battery. But who cares about displacing aboriginals when we can make a buck or two billion. Good bye northern Minnesota... We need all those metals. We could lower the impact by actually recycling our ewaste but what we call ewaste recycling is really just ewaste redistribution as we ship it to China to be picked through by organized crime and slave labor

 

[ia_trouter]

I'll be careful so I don't cross the line into politics.....

The math doesn't work well for most renewables or clean energy, but it's the future. It just has to be, even if not in Fred or my lifetime. I do hope the GOV continues to apply research funding as there just isn't enough motivation for business to go all in it when there are currently other energy options with depressed prices. We need to continue to get the cost of storage devices such as batteries down. It's already happening but there is much progress to be made. I can't believe that solar energy is not cost efficient to power an average house. I'm not expecting we'll power a steel mill with solar anytime soon, but some lights, a TV, CELL phone charges, some AC, maybe charge the cars battery? That just doesn't seem so far fetched to me. We put a man on the moon about 50 years ago. Solar seems doable in most parts of the world.

 

[GrtLksMarlin]

:thumbsup:

B.E.F.

 

[fredaevans]

I'll be careful so I don't cross the line into politics.....

The math doesn't work well for most renewables or clean energy, but it's the future. It just has to be, even if not in Fred or my lifetime. I do hope the GOV continues to apply research funding as there just isn't enough motivation for business to go all in it when there are currently other energy options with depressed prices. We need to continue to get the cost of storage devices such as batteries down. It's already happening but there is much progress to be made. I can't believe that solar energy is not cost efficient to power an average house. I'm not expecting we'll power a steel mill with solar anytime soon, but some lights, a TV, CELL phone charges, some AC, maybe charge the cars battery? That just doesn't seem so far fetched to me. We put a man on the moon about 50 years ago. Solar seems doable in most parts of the world.

+1 to the above. Personal opinion here but a huge leap in battery storrage is the key to the whole thing. Not much you can do about the number of hours of day light, but even on cloudy days the 'solar charge' is getting through all but the heaviest of cloud covers. (Think getting a sun burn!)

After the sun goes down .... then what?

 

[ia_trouter]

+1 to the above. Personal opinion here but a huge leap in battery storrage is the key to the whole thing. Not much you can do about the number of hours of day light, but even on cloudy days the 'solar charge' is getting through all but the heaviest of cloud covers. (Think getting a sun burn!)

After the sun goes down .... then what?

Seems Tesla is going to drive it to next level if any business is. And while staying at Ard's cabin off the grid I wondered. .... He's mostly only there during summer months. 18-21HRs of daylight. It would seem an affordable system could work there. But you need battery storage that costs $1000, not $5000 and need replaced about the time you broke even on utility bills if power were available.

My daughter attended a large JR College last year that is about 50% solar powered and a bit of wind power on campus too. 9000+ students so they have some serious power requirements. So it's possible, but what did it cost to install? Had to be crazy high but this is an IA public college so I know who paid for the install. But these are the projects that need to happen if it will ever become economical though. I think we'd all agree our GOV has wasted money on less worthy endeavors.

 

[mridenour]

I'll be careful so I don't cross the line into politics.....

The math doesn't work well for most renewables or clean energy, but it's the future. It just has to be, even if not in Fred or my lifetime. I do hope the GOV continues to apply research funding as there just isn't enough motivation for business to go all in it when there are currently other energy options with depressed prices. We need to continue to get the cost of storage devices such as batteries down. It's already happening but there is much progress to be made. I can't believe that solar energy is not cost efficient to power an average house. I'm not expecting we'll power a steel mill with solar anytime soon, but some lights, a TV, CELL phone charges, some AC, maybe charge the cars battery? That just doesn't seem so far fetched to me. We put a man on the moon about 50 years ago. Solar seems doable in most parts of the world.

Solar is grossly inefficient. There is only so much capability of the current technology to convert light to electricity. Until a completely different technology is discovered and developed, solar is pretty much a small supplement to electric usage. The cooperative I work for buys back energy from people that produce excess electricity from their solar systems. The amount is miniscule and they reduce their usage by an amount, under best-case circumstances, that requires them twenty years plus to recoup their investment in solar. We'd love for solar to work but it just doesn't at this time.

I believe at some point, there will be an efficient way to produce solar electricity in amounts that meet real world needs but at this point it is a novelty.

We've invested large amounts of money in wind farms but they also are unreliable at times and the investment takes quite a long time to recover. Also, they are ugly and they cover miles and miles of the landscape.

The average household just keeps consuming more and more electricity per year and unless that changes, or someone comes up with some sort of breakthrough in energy generation, what we have now will be the bulk of our power generation. Unfortunately, it appears that the government is going to forge ahead with forcing power plants to shut down and rebuild new ones with more expensive forms of generation while there is, as of right now, no economical alternative.

Rates will go up drastically. It is already happening. In the last 5 years we have had to hike rates more than in the last 35 combined. This is all due to re-tooling and reworking power plants to exceed federal standards but before the money spent can be recovered, the rules are being changed.

If you do the math, in the United States, coal-fired power plants produce less than 1/2 of 1% of all greenhouse effect gases. They are the current political target. It is what it is.

---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------

Seems Tesla is going to drive it to next level if any business is. And while staying at Ard's cabin off the grid I wondered. .... He's mostly only there during summer months. 18-21HRs of daylight. It would seem an affordable system could work there. But you need battery storage that costs $1000, not $5000 and need replaced about the time you broke even on utility bills if power were available.

My daughter attended a large JR College last year that is about 50% solar powered and a bit of wind power on campus too. 9000+ students so they have some serious power requirements. So it's possible, but what did it cost to install? Had to be crazy high but this is an IA public college so I know who paid for the install. But these are the projects that need to happen if it will ever become economical though. I think we'd all agree our GOV has wasted money on less worthy endeavors.

The Tesla system is going to be huge! Additionally, you can store charges from the current electrical distribution system during off-peak times when rates are cheaper and use it during times that rates are higher.

 

[ia_trouter]

Solar is grossly inefficient.

---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------



The Tesla system is going to be huge! Additionally, you can store charges from the current electrical distribution system during off-peak times when rates are cheaper and use it during times that rates are higher.

Just to grab a snip from your post and twist it to my liking. So is an internal combustion engine depending on how you define efficiency. Oil is cheap now but most of the potential energy exits the tailpipe and block in the form of heat. It's better now than it was of course because we applied technological advances. And the input power for solar appears free to me. I can spin this pretty well, but I know what you mean Mike. In the end it comes down to current technology, or lack thereof.

 

[GrtLksMarlin]

Some time ago I had the idea of utilizing the flexing of a roadway to generate electricity via piezoelectric materials... Then like all retrospective geniuses, I went fishing instead or some such... A few years later, I see a program on TV where some folks didn't go fishing and decided to run with the idea.

I hope they do well and it yields all they claim. There is a LOT that could be done if folks just put their minds to it. Be it your suspension generates electricity, braking, the list goes on. However, you have to apply it.

Not decide to take a break and go fishing to ponder the vast possibili...Hold that thought, fish on!

B.E.F.

 

[rangerrich99]

Don't know diddly about Ecars, other than Tesla seems to have somehow jumped way ahead of the competition.

As far as solar, I don't know about the rest of the country, but I've had solar at the house for the last three years, and here in Phoenix, AZ, it saves me a ton of $$$.

I won't bore anyone with the math (plus I'd had to go and dig up the bills), but essentially from June to October, the electric company pays me to use electricity. Just for reference, the house is about 4000 sq. ft., three fridges, five flat screens, and two very large A/C units, plus your everyday appliances. Now, they aren't paying me much, but I'm running the A/C at a constant 75 degrees. In July. In Phoenix. OAT averages over 116 degrees F. Compared to the $400/mo. bills I used to get, I'm pretty sure I'm doing all right.

From the middle or end of Oct. to about the middle of Feb. I owe them about $100/mo., and the rest of the year the bill is pretty much ZERO. U.S.D.

Now, having said all of that, I also agree that the tech needs to improve, and the cost needs to come down drastically, but solar is not a fairy tale. At least not in the desert. In Illinois, it probably isn't so great. In Seattle, it would be a bad joke with current tech.

Peace.

 

[mridenour]

Just to grab a snip from your post and twist it to my liking. So is an internal combustion engine depending on how you define efficiency. Oil is cheap now but most of the potential energy exits the tailpipe and block in the form of heat. It's better now than it was of course because we applied technological advances. And the input power for solar appears free to me. I can spin this pretty well, but I know what you mean Mike. In the end it comes down to current technology, or lack thereof.

Correct! The sun is free. But manufacture of solar cells is not. So kWh per $ is what is inefficient. I guess I used the wrong word there. When the technology was discovered, there was great hope but at this point the limitations of the it seem too great. I still believe solar energy is in our future in some point but probably in a completely different and undiscovered variety than the minute amounts of power we can currently squeeze out of light.

Hydrogen power still seems to me like the way to go but it isn't trendy at the moment. The people making the decisions on where funding goes don't really understand engineering or science. They are politicians. That is what makes me think that the answers are two or ten times further into the future than what they should be.

A lot of what we hear on the energy generation front is based more on wishful thinking than science. On a good note, wishful thinking has brought about a lot of awesome innovation in this country.

 

[fredaevans]

Double thumbs up to the posters on this thread.

Tossed this one out due to an interesting article I read and getting a real education from several of the posts. Agree with our Fellow who lives in Arizona (think I got that right).

But it appears the further south you live the longer the daylight hours regardless of the time of the year and the more 'financially viable' it becomes. Pay Back time on these systems may be long but if you can, get a tax write off on some (all?) of these systems.

One of the few things that our Government does that makes sense? :shocking:

 

[JDR]

The discussion has to be about more than the number of pennies you save on your electric bill each month. Mrridenour makes the point that coal is a tiny portion of overall energy production. But what are the ancillary costs of a process that destroys mountain tops and obliterates streams? I'll pay more, thank you. Companies so desperate for fossil fuels that they actually fracture the core of the earth, causing earthquakes, so they can get every last drop. No thanks, I'll pay more. I am sure I will be little more than a fresh carbon stain by the time my grandchildren are confronted with the consequences of our greed, laziness, and fear of change. It is important to remember that these energy sources are called "fossil fuels" for more than one reason.

 

[ia_trouter]

The discussion has to be about more than the number of pennies you save on your electric bill each month. Mrridenour makes the point that coal is a tiny portion of overall energy production. But what are the ancillary costs of a process that destroys mountain tops and obliterates streams? I'll pay more, thank you. Companies so desperate for fossil fuels that they actually fracture the core of the earth, causing earthquakes, so they can get every last drop. No thanks, I'll pay more. I am sure I will be little more than a fresh carbon stain by the time my grandchildren are confronted with the consequences of our greed, laziness, and fear of change. It is important to remember that these energy sources are called "fossil fuels" for more than one reason.

It's more complicated than a few pennies for sure. This is a forum full of outdoorsmen. Of course we don't want to destroy the earth. We also have children and grandchildren and want them to enjoy what we did. The challenge is to do it without devastating our economy. Green is cool until you lose your own job. It is easy to say let's just be green because it's right. Of course it's right, but you can't ignore economics and some do. Green is cool until it costs you your own job.

Hopefully technology advances so we have renewable options in the future. Real options that don't require huge long term subsidies because the math doesn't actually work at all. I truly think we will. Human innovation has been pretty impressive through history.

 

[weiliwen]

I worked for a wind turbine manufacturer for the better part of a decade, and have researched costs for all sorts of renewable or even energy efficient goods, from wind turbines to light bulbs.

First, as several posters above have correctly stated, these are usually not as cheap as the old fashioned ways, if you only use the dollars per KWH or similar. However, if we don't start now, then these technologies will not develop to the point where the cost/benefit ratio changes in their favor.

Therefore, these extra costs should be seen as investments instead. A Model T was very expensive to the average American when it came out, and slow and inefficient and prone to breakdowns. Now I can get a brand new cheapo Toyota that is faster than a 1950's Ferrari, only needs serving every 15K miles, gets amazing mileage, and has every chance of lasting 200K miles. Without the investments in earlier automobiles, it would never exist. Yup, you are paying extra, through your tax dollars, or directly through your wallet, to help improve technologies for the future when you might not even be around.

Is that wrong? Not for me, but each person needs to answer that individually.

 

[gannett10]

Even though a lot of these alternative energy sources are inefficient / uneconomical, I think the concepts at least merit research investment. That said, I think we'd be making a mistake by abandoning our old methods as well. Look at the advancements we've made on those fronts in the past 50 years. What we really need to put more resources into, though, is nuclear energy. The process has virtually no carbon footprint, and huge strides are being made to reduce / reuse / and safely dispose of waste. Just imagine a day where we're knocking out a bunch of hydroelectric dams without flinching because we have plenty of inexpensive, clean energy coming from nuclear power plants.

 

[cab]

I'll throw another monkey wrench in the works: The Long Tailpipe. We're sold a buncha goods as all "green", when the manufacture of said thing actually does more harm than it's use supposedly saves. You are doing Mother Earth more good by combining trips and therefore driving your existing pickup less than by buying the latest hybrid or electric car, for example.

The Model T was designed, built, and sold as the "Everyman's Car". Sell to the rich, get poor. Sell to the poor, get rich. Henry had it figgered out. I'll admit, he did overlook the female market!

I like nukes, as well. Shame that we (the USA) haven't done more in this area, IMO.

CAB

 

[ia_trouter]

I'll throw another monkey wrench in the works: The Long Tailpipe. We're sold a buncha goods as all "green", when the manufacture of said thing actually does more harm than it's use supposedly saves. You are doing Mother Earth more good by combining trips and therefore driving your existing pickup less than by buying the latest hybrid or electric car, for example.

The Model T was designed, built, and sold as the "Everyman's Car". Sell to the rich, get poor. Sell to the poor, get rich. Henry had it figgered out. I'll admit, he did overlook the female market!

I like nukes, as well. Shame that we (the USA) haven't done more in this area, IMO.

CAB

Our local nuke plant appears to be scheduled to close down in a couple years. I didn't see that coming. The area population is growing fairly rapidly. Probably all the new windmills.... not!