Amazing natural caster pt. 3.

[Guest1]

This was a windy and cold Fall up here. We had trouble getting time where we could both be there without wind and get video of Bill casting. We never did get a day where we had no wind. We shot some video earlier, but the second thread about Bill's amazing casting abilities attracted one of the worlds best casters. I think Bill got a bit nervous about having his video being watched by some of these great casters, plus to date the thread has nearly 4500 views. http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/fly-cast/164682-amazing-natural-caster-update.html I can understand his apprehension. Bill and I shot a short bit of video, where he's on one knee and casts the entire 120' Rio Cold competition line. Bill said "Post it, I don't want to see it first." By the way, he's still doing this with a Cabela's Three Forks rod. His goal this winter is to crack 130' with that rod. I'm betting he can do it. He's not that far away from it now. I realize that at that distance, 5 feet may as well be 5 miles in most cases, but I think he'll do it.
Rio Gold 120' comp line video by fishnwflies - Photobucket@@AMEPARAM@@http://vid653.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/fishnwflies/BillRiocomplete_Title_1.mp4@@AMEPARAM@@vid653@@AMEPARAM@@653@@AMEPARAM@@uu253/fishnwflies/BillRiocomplete_Title_1@@AMEPARAM@@mp4[/ame]"][ame="http://s653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/fishnwflies/?action=view&current=BillRiocomplete_Title_1.mp4"]Rio Gold 120' comp line video by fishnwflies - Photobucket@@AMEPARAM@@http://vid653.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/fishnwflies/BillRiocomplete_Title_1.mp4@@AMEPARAM@@vid653@@AMEPARAM@@653@@AMEPARAM@@uu253/fishnwflies/BillRiocomplete_Title_1@@AMEPARAM@@mp4[/ame]

 

[Jackster]

Whole loltsa power going on!
At a quick glance he might even gain more distance if he can work on ending the slight creep on each cast. He is effectively shortening his stroke length by doing this. It isn't a terrible amount of creep by any stretch but just another small thing to consider.

I'm glad he wasn't around when I played casting games!

 

[Guest1]

I never even noticed the creep. He has been pretty adjustable in his casting. I'm sure he can get that out.

By the way, does anyone know why there is that computor gibberish at the end of the text in my first post? If I go in with the edit feature it is not there to do anything with?

I personally hate using photobucket to post these videos, but he does not want them on You Tube for some reason. This gibberish in the post is one of the reasons I hate doing it this way.

 

[chuckfluffer]

That is pretty amazing. No legs, no weight transfer and no height. Astonishing. I will have to try it sometime.

I didn't see any creep as such but Bill does have a bit more time than he thinks he does. Get him to drop the rod tip to horizontal or even below horizontal before he starts his forward cast and tell us if it helps.

Mike

 

[pegboy1]

Diver Dan....PM sent.

---------- Post added at 10:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 PM ----------

Look at the wobble of that rod at the end of his back cast. Seems to me to be alot of lost energy. He needs to get a faster more responsive rod and he'll be ripping them a mile!! I'm just the guy to get one in his hands.... Ha ha.

 

[Guest1]

We had some pretty gusty wind that day and he was fighting that. He had also been doing this with the 7 wt. Three Forks rod, but he had a little accident involving it and his feet. He ended up having to use a 6 wt for this video. When he's not rushed and warmed up, has the 7 wt. and not fighting the wind he has almost no wobble in the end. He also gets the whole line out easier. He was trying hard to get a hold of it for the shoot with a good back cast, but never really got ahold of a good one because of the wind. I think this video actually isn't as good as the video we shot he freaked out over and wouldn't let me post.

By the way I understand how he felt. He shot video of me spey casting and when I looked at it, I realized I make a really goofy looking face when I cast. I destroyed the evidence. In the future all video of me spey casting will be shot from behind. :teef:

 

[Pocono]

I agree with Jackxter; there's a lot of upper body muscle power in your caster.

I did notice one thing. He looks like he's using two different casting strokes; one for the back cast and and one for the forward cast.

Give or take the first couple of inches of the stroke, his back cast starts with somewhat of a jerk; he's got a lot of the acceleration in that stroke at the front end; much less towards the back.

The front cast, on the on the other hand, starts with less acceleration and accelerates throughout the stroke; which is what I'd expect for a distance casting stroke.

I recall that Dan said that his back cast might actually be better than his forward cast, but looking at the difference in the two strokes, I find that surprising, because a stroke that has more acceleration at the front than at the back should yield a shorter distance, since the rod is just following the line after the initial accelerating jerk.

Perhaps I'm just looking at it wrong, but you might want to discuss it with him.

To me Steve Rajeff's forward and back casts both look like this guy's forward cast.

However he does it, I'd sure like to be able to cast the distances that he does.

Pocono

 

[wjc]

What I see is a huge improvement in the forward haul over the much nicer looking, smoother previous video when Bill was standing.

I think it's amazing that he can throw 120' while kneeling - especially with grass behind - him in weather cold enough to be wearing a jacket.

On the third or forth to the last false cast he might have shot a bit too much line out, but he didn't loose it, recovered nicely and had two good back casts before the release.

I also think what looks like creep is actually a type of casting that I think can result in extremely rapid rod loading. It is not possible to tell from the video, but I think Bill is still shooting line into the backcast while moving the rod forward for the forward cast, then clamping the line after he's cocked his shoulder and when his rod hand is right around the vicinity of his shoulder.

As I've mentioned before on this site, I've been casting that way for over 40 years when fishing a long line without even realizing I was doing it. George Roberts described that method in this passage of a great article he wrote:

As your back cast unrolls, and running line is shooting through your fingers, let your rod tip drift backward to affect a longer forward casting arc. However, when you begin your forward stroke, you should continue to shoot running line through the fingers of your line hand. That is, the rod tip slides forward along the fly line with no load (slide loading). Your rod hand and line hand will be moving toward each other. When your hands come together, trap the running line (of which you’ve shot as much as 10 feet) with your line hand. When you trap the running line, the momentum of the rod tip moving forward coming against the momentum of the fly line shooting backward is going to pull the rod into a very abrupt, very powerful load. The rod loads instantly, rather than gradually, as it would on a conventional casting stroke.

Although both Mike and Paul Arden (two of the world's best 5 wt distance casters) do not think much of this method of casting in distance competition, it is the only way I cast when throwing a long line because of long habit. It works better for me than waiting. The timing of the forward movement as well as the clamp timing is critical, however.

Bill , if you don't get to where you want to be this winter, just remember that cold air is way denser than warm air. You tell him, Dan, if he doesn't read this.

And as I learned from Mike, low pressure days are better than nice ones, and from Paul that high humidity days are better than clear for distance. As I learned on my own, the longest casts I get when distance casing are always when I start in the heat of a blistering hot, calm, muggy day right at the beginning of my casting before the line starts wilting in the heat.

That is some amazing casting there. Throwing 120' of line while kneeling in the grass is a real feat!

 

[Guest1]

Thanks for the comments guys. I'll talk with him and get back to you. He's nothing short of amazing though is he.

 

[Guest1]

I just got talking to Bill. He said he does indeed do the line slip as you described, WJC. He got the idea in fact from some stuff by George Roberts. I should have caught on to what you were saying sooner because he showed me this earlier this summer. That's how I managed to shoot my whole line out of my rod. His description was worded different. He said "line slip" instead of "shooting line back" as he goes into the forward stroke. I still should have caught that.I guess there is not a lot of stuff out there by Roberts, at least that Bill has found, but he did find that valuable. He thinks it helps smooth out the backcast as well. He's kind of mixed a few styles. By the way, where you said WJC, "What I see is a huge improvement in the forward haul over the much nicer looking, smoother previous video when Bill was standing.", he said to say it's because of some tips from a veteran caster on the forum here. ( WJC, then imagine here a winking smiley he wanted me to put in that I guess we don't have.) He said Pocono was right about something too, but looking at his post isn't helpng me remeber what it was. Oh No! I'm having a senior moment here.

I also discussed the removal of a lot of body from the equation by kneeling. I don't think Bill thinks it hurts him that much but I think if he looked at the video of him standing and then kneeling and have them run side by side he may change his opinion on that.

As he said, he's still in the infancy of his distance casting. It's going to be interesting to see where this leads.

 

[Pocono]

He said Pocono was right about something too, but looking at his post isn't helping me remember what it was. Oh No! I'm having a senior moment here.

Maybe two different casting strokes; front and back?

Even though he's got a lot of upper body strength, if he puts some body mechanics into his casting two things will probably happen: 1. he'll generate more power, which will likely translate into greater distance, and 2. it will be easier for him to cast; less perceived effort.

The key to using body mechanics is to get all of the involved body muscles and ligaments focused, so that they all come together at the same time; that's how you generate maximum power. For casting, that would involve, among ther things, transferring weight from one foot to the other, pivoting the hips, bringing the lats into the equation, plus the other upper torso and arm muscles that he's already using. Sounds like a lot, but if he can do it slowly, so that he can see how these mechanics work together, then it's no big deal to get them working quickly in a coordinated manner. I can't see any downside to his trying to work body mechanics into his casting.

And even without using full body mechanics, I would bet that he can get the line out there further and with less effort when he's standing than when he's kneeling; because even when you're not using full body mechanics, you're at least using some of them.

Pocono