I was speaking to a young rep at one of the fly rod booths at the Somerset show last week. As he took me to the casting pond to try a rod he mentioned that he was a competition fly caster. He then mentioned that he can cast a regular weight forward 5wt floating line 180'. allthough I kept a straight face I wanted to bust out laughing right at him. I kept my composier and simply said "WOW" but at the same time thinking there is NO way possible he can cast a reguler floating line that far. My question is, what is the actual record distance for a regular WF 5wt line?
World record distance WF 5wt?
- Thread starter pegboy1
- Start date
fyshstykr
Well-known member
Whoa! Musta been with a big wind at his back and no backing attached eh?! 
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sandfly
Well-known member
Should have asked him to cast the whole line on the pond. thats only around 90', my bet is he wouldn't be able to do that...
Jim C. Chapralis' list
If you can cast this far:
18-21 meters or 60-70 feet or less: Good going. It's a start.
22-27 meters 70-90 feet: Consider yourself a fairly good caster (you are throwing a heavy shooting head which, for some people, is harder to cast than a lighter outfit with a standard fly line).
27-33 meters or 90-110 feet: You've learned the double haul well and with more practice can develop into a very good distance caster.
33-38 meters or 110-125 feet: Superb. With a few tips you could move up into the next bracket. While this distance is not particularly impressive in tournaments, it indicates that you understand the basics and with some practice you will quickly ascend to the next level.
38-43 meters or 125-140 feet: See what I mean, about getting a high when you uncork a long cast! Great isn't it? You bet! You're an excellent distance caster.
43-49 meters or 140-160 feet: Wonderful! Feel proud! You have climbed a peak that very few anglers have reached. You're in the elite class. If you aren't a tournament caster, you're one heckuva good caster and definitely ACA National Casting Championship material!
Over 49 meters or 161 feet: Surely you've done lots of tournament casting! I doubt that there are more than a dozen anglers in North America who can cast this distance under normal weather conditions.
Adapted from Angling matters
There are several things to note about this list.
Casts shorter than 90 feet or 30 meters do not impress Chaprelis. Most of us are in that end of the scale. And ordinary WF-line is 85-90 feet or some 27 meters long. Only the minority of fly anglers can cast out a whole line.
Casts longer than 160 feet or 50 meters are for the super elite in casting, and nothing that anybody will obtain under normal fishing conditions.
Casts longer than 190 feet or 60 meters are very rare. Even with specially tuned casting gear.
Jim C. Chapralis' list
If you can cast this far:
18-21 meters or 60-70 feet or less: Good going. It's a start.
22-27 meters 70-90 feet: Consider yourself a fairly good caster (you are throwing a heavy shooting head which, for some people, is harder to cast than a lighter outfit with a standard fly line).
27-33 meters or 90-110 feet: You've learned the double haul well and with more practice can develop into a very good distance caster.
33-38 meters or 110-125 feet: Superb. With a few tips you could move up into the next bracket. While this distance is not particularly impressive in tournaments, it indicates that you understand the basics and with some practice you will quickly ascend to the next level.
38-43 meters or 125-140 feet: See what I mean, about getting a high when you uncork a long cast! Great isn't it? You bet! You're an excellent distance caster.
43-49 meters or 140-160 feet: Wonderful! Feel proud! You have climbed a peak that very few anglers have reached. You're in the elite class. If you aren't a tournament caster, you're one heckuva good caster and definitely ACA National Casting Championship material!
Over 49 meters or 161 feet: Surely you've done lots of tournament casting! I doubt that there are more than a dozen anglers in North America who can cast this distance under normal weather conditions.
Adapted from Angling matters
There are several things to note about this list.
Casts shorter than 90 feet or 30 meters do not impress Chaprelis. Most of us are in that end of the scale. And ordinary WF-line is 85-90 feet or some 27 meters long. Only the minority of fly anglers can cast out a whole line.
Casts longer than 160 feet or 50 meters are for the super elite in casting, and nothing that anybody will obtain under normal fishing conditions.
Casts longer than 190 feet or 60 meters are very rare. Even with specially tuned casting gear.
I think those distances may be a tad high. I don't think I have ever heard of a 160' from anyone. 140's are a freakishly long cast. Who's doing 160' and with what?
On a related side note, My Canadian fishing buddy is up to casting the whole 130' Bario fly line out and he's still using the Cabela's Three Forks rod doing it. That by the way is in the mid 120' zone with squiggles accounted for.
On a related side note, My Canadian fishing buddy is up to casting the whole 130' Bario fly line out and he's still using the Cabela's Three Forks rod doing it. That by the way is in the mid 120' zone with squiggles accounted for.
You're nicer than I am. I would have laughed and then tried to bet him cash on it.
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Pocono
Moderator
I think that Steve Rajeff won the last Best of the West casting competition (back when it was a distance-only event for 5 wt. rods), with a cast of arouind 122'. So, if the original question was posed for a 5 wt. rod, then I think that's about as good as it gets.
With a specially built rod; I think usually a modified 7 wt., his record is around 238'.
The American two-handed casting record is over 300'
Jackster will have better information on this.
Pocono
With a specially built rod; I think usually a modified 7 wt., his record is around 238'.
The American two-handed casting record is over 300'
Jackster will have better information on this.
Pocono
trout trekker
Well-known member
Just some numbers matched with equipment to mull over.
Records: American Casting Association
Rules: http://www.americancastingassoc.org...urnament_regs_2012.pdf#page=25&view=FitH,1078
Angler's Fly Distance:
Current Record: Men , 190 feet Rene Gillibert, Steve Rajeff
i) Rod - The complete rod shall not exceed nine feet, one inch (9'1") in length and shall be
singlehanded.
ii) Reel - Unrestricted, except reel must be attached to the rod and must be capable of holding the
entire line.
iii) Line
a) Shooting head shall be no longer than thirty-one (31) feet nor shorter then twenty-eight (28)
feet and shall weigh not more then three hundred ten (310) grains.
b) Running line - Unrestricted except that the diameter shall not be less than 0.015 inches.
iv) Leader - Shall consist of a single leader of natural or artificial gut or gut substitute not more than
twelve (12) feet nor shorter than nine (9) feet in length.
v) Fly
a) Description - Official distance fly adopted by the Association. The hackle shall not be smaller
than five-eighths (5/8) inch in diameter.
b) Application - Only one fly may be attached to the leader at the tip end. The fly may be
changed at any time, or a lost fly replaced, with a fly approved by the Judge.
Fly Distance, Singlehanded -
Current Record: Men: 243 feet - Steve Rajeff
i) Rod - The complete rod shall not exceed nine feet and nine inches (9'9") in length.
ii) Reel - Unrestricted, except reel must be attached to the rod and must be capable of holding the
entire line.
iii) Line
a) For Men, Senior Men, and Intermediate boys, the shooting head shall not be less than fortynine
feet three inches (49'3") in length and shall not weigh more than six hundred fifty (650)grains.
b) For Women, Senior Women, and Intermediate girls, the shooting head shall not be less than
forty-four feet four inches (44'4") in length and shall not weigh more than five hundred twenty
four (524) grains.
c) Running line - Unrestricted.
iv) Leader - Shall consist of a single leader of natural or artificial gut or gut substitute and not longer
than twelve (12) feet nor shorter than six (6) feet in length.
v) Fly
a) Description - Official distance fly adopted by the Association. The hackle shall not be smaller
than five-eighths (5/8) inch in diameter.
b) Application - Only one fly may be attached to the leader at the tip end. The fly may be
changed at any time, or a lost fly replaced, with a fly approved by the Judge.
There is also a newer game: 5 wt. Combination Accuracy and Distance
Special Event (ACA 5wt Event Rules )
I have no idea what distances they are obtaining. However, I’ve been to enough I.S.E. 5 weight distance casting events ( Best of the West Competition ) with men like Steve Rajeff competing and in an outdoor environment, ( San Mateo, CA ) I don’t think I’ve ever seen them exceed the high 120‘s to low 130‘s during the actual event.
That was with a stock five weight ( like the Sage TCR and an off the shelf five weight line. ) indoors with warm air, low humidity, zero wind, etc, they’d probably poke it out there a bit further.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS1nTTAAEYQ]Steve Rajeff Winner Best of The West Fly Casting Contest - YouTube[/ame]
Not saying it can’t be done, but I’d have to see this horse before I’d buy it.
TT
ACA Official National Records-
Anglers Fly Distance & Fly Distance Singlehand
( This is with shooting heads and a running line - not a full weight forward fly line. The tolerances for a WF-5-F line are 134 - 146 Grains. Keep that in mind as you read the shooting head weights listed below. They’re not using anything close to a five weight rod or line. )Anglers Fly Distance & Fly Distance Singlehand
Records: American Casting Association
Rules: http://www.americancastingassoc.org...urnament_regs_2012.pdf#page=25&view=FitH,1078
Angler's Fly Distance:
Current Record: Men , 190 feet Rene Gillibert, Steve Rajeff
i) Rod - The complete rod shall not exceed nine feet, one inch (9'1") in length and shall be
singlehanded.
ii) Reel - Unrestricted, except reel must be attached to the rod and must be capable of holding the
entire line.
iii) Line
a) Shooting head shall be no longer than thirty-one (31) feet nor shorter then twenty-eight (28)
feet and shall weigh not more then three hundred ten (310) grains.
b) Running line - Unrestricted except that the diameter shall not be less than 0.015 inches.
iv) Leader - Shall consist of a single leader of natural or artificial gut or gut substitute not more than
twelve (12) feet nor shorter than nine (9) feet in length.
v) Fly
a) Description - Official distance fly adopted by the Association. The hackle shall not be smaller
than five-eighths (5/8) inch in diameter.
b) Application - Only one fly may be attached to the leader at the tip end. The fly may be
changed at any time, or a lost fly replaced, with a fly approved by the Judge.
Fly Distance, Singlehanded -
Current Record: Men: 243 feet - Steve Rajeff
i) Rod - The complete rod shall not exceed nine feet and nine inches (9'9") in length.
ii) Reel - Unrestricted, except reel must be attached to the rod and must be capable of holding the
entire line.
iii) Line
a) For Men, Senior Men, and Intermediate boys, the shooting head shall not be less than fortynine
feet three inches (49'3") in length and shall not weigh more than six hundred fifty (650)grains.
b) For Women, Senior Women, and Intermediate girls, the shooting head shall not be less than
forty-four feet four inches (44'4") in length and shall not weigh more than five hundred twenty
four (524) grains.
c) Running line - Unrestricted.
iv) Leader - Shall consist of a single leader of natural or artificial gut or gut substitute and not longer
than twelve (12) feet nor shorter than six (6) feet in length.
v) Fly
a) Description - Official distance fly adopted by the Association. The hackle shall not be smaller
than five-eighths (5/8) inch in diameter.
b) Application - Only one fly may be attached to the leader at the tip end. The fly may be
changed at any time, or a lost fly replaced, with a fly approved by the Judge.
There is also a newer game: 5 wt. Combination Accuracy and Distance
Special Event (ACA 5wt Event Rules )
I have no idea what distances they are obtaining. However, I’ve been to enough I.S.E. 5 weight distance casting events ( Best of the West Competition ) with men like Steve Rajeff competing and in an outdoor environment, ( San Mateo, CA ) I don’t think I’ve ever seen them exceed the high 120‘s to low 130‘s during the actual event.
That was with a stock five weight ( like the Sage TCR and an off the shelf five weight line. ) indoors with warm air, low humidity, zero wind, etc, they’d probably poke it out there a bit further.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS1nTTAAEYQ]Steve Rajeff Winner Best of The West Fly Casting Contest - YouTube[/ame]
Not saying it can’t be done, but I’d have to see this horse before I’d buy it.
TT
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What seems to be being missed here is that those really long distances are with rediculously heavy shooting heads and thin mono running lines. With a "regular 5 wt." it's about as likely as Bigfoot being on America's Got Talent. Look at Rajeff's distances with a real fly line. He looses at least 100' of those long distances. One more thing. I don't consider it fly casting when you do those overweighted heads and tiny little mono running lines. If you start saying "I can cast 180' witha single hand rod." and fail to mention it's on one of those silly shooting head systems it's kind of dishonest. But that's not what the guy said to Pegboy. He said "He then mentioned that he can cast a regular weight forward 5wt floating line 180'."
The BOTW finals are held here in SLC and I've seen Rejeff and Rick ??? (brain f@rt on Rick's last name) in practice throws, hit over 130', and competition in the mid 120's.
The rods were either Loomis or Sage 5 wt. and SA distance line. But remember this is all indoors.
If the young rep could really throw 180', then you would have known his name.
Me, I'll call bull$hit.
And for what it's worth, not only is Steve Rajeff a hell of a distance caster, but an extemely accurate caster too.
P.s. just remembered Rick Hartman's the other guys name. Out of Texas
The rods were either Loomis or Sage 5 wt. and SA distance line. But remember this is all indoors.
If the young rep could really throw 180', then you would have known his name.
Me, I'll call bull$hit.
And for what it's worth, not only is Steve Rajeff a hell of a distance caster, but an extemely accurate caster too.
P.s. just remembered Rick Hartman's the other guys name. Out of Texas
trout trekker
Well-known member
Dan,
If that was intended towards my post, then you didn't read this part of my post,
( This is with shooting heads and a running line - not a full weight forward fly
line. The tolerances for a WF-5-F line are 134 - 146 Grains. Keep that in mind as you read the shooting head weights listed below. They’re not using anything close to a five weight rod or line. )
Re: "What seems to be being missed here is that those really long distances are with rediculously heavy shooting heads and thin mono running lines."
Re:"I don't consider it fly casting when you do those overweighted heads and tiny little mono running lines."
More importantly Dan, what weight head would you use on a nine weight rod? That 310 grain head is on the light side of an 11 weight head. Going up two lines sizes with heads is pretty common. We routinely use 30' feet of LC-13 for heads out here on our nine weights, that head weighs over 390 grains. ( because LC-13 usually weighs 13.2 -13.4 grains per foot ). I've been using 20 and 30 pound Amnesia for running line which are pretty darned thin, for better than forty years.
No I'm not insulted one bit Dan, thanks for validating my fishing choices and those of thousands of others.
TT
But as I said, I'd have to see the horse before I'd buy it.
If that was intended towards my post, then you didn't read this part of my post,
( This is with shooting heads and a running line - not a full weight forward fly
line. The tolerances for a WF-5-F line are 134 - 146 Grains. Keep that in mind as you read the shooting head weights listed below. They’re not using anything close to a five weight rod or line. )
Re: "What seems to be being missed here is that those really long distances are with rediculously heavy shooting heads and thin mono running lines."
Re:"I don't consider it fly casting when you do those overweighted heads and tiny little mono running lines."
More importantly Dan, what weight head would you use on a nine weight rod? That 310 grain head is on the light side of an 11 weight head. Going up two lines sizes with heads is pretty common. We routinely use 30' feet of LC-13 for heads out here on our nine weights, that head weighs over 390 grains. ( because LC-13 usually weighs 13.2 -13.4 grains per foot ). I've been using 20 and 30 pound Amnesia for running line which are pretty darned thin, for better than forty years.
No I'm not insulted one bit Dan, thanks for validating my fishing choices and those of thousands of others.
TT
But as I said, I'd have to see the horse before I'd buy it.
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It was absolutely clear when I asked him that he was talking about an "off the shelf" ordinary floating line. Rather than be confrontational I shrugged it off with a "WOW" and than lughed inside a bit. I do realize with shooting heads and running lines the distances can easily be that long.
fire instructor
Well-known member
OK. I'm confused..... I fish for enjoyment and relaxation..... I didn't know that fishing, was a "contest". For me, if I'm looking fpr something "competitive", between NHL, NCIC hockey, and NA$CAR, I've got 12 months covered! Others can do as they prefer, but I'll fish to unwind, and not to compete....
I think you're confusing fishing with casting. Casting well competitively is pure, unadultererated skill. Unless you're a friend of Diver Dan's, most mere mortals can't begin to get the distances he gets without a heck of a good framework and many moons of practice, practice, practice. This also holds true, if not more so for the accuracy component of most casting compeititions. Both accuracy and distance skills play well with your becoming a better overall fly fisherman.
I don't know of any good caster who is not also a fine fly fisher. I do know good fly fisherman who would be way better if they only knew how to cast and cover all casting situations.
fire instructor
Well-known member
Good points, Brother, but is covering "all casting situations" strictly distance casting? Matching the hatch, roll-casts, dropping, Tenkara-like fly placement, even trolling with a streamer, are all forms and components of fly-fishing that distance casting doesn't help. Every method possible of presenting a pleasing (and enticing) meal to a finiky fish...
To He11 with the hola-hoops.... Lets try to hit dinner plates and tea-cup saucers, at ALL distances! Now THAT may be a bit more of a measurement of a sucessful fly-fisherman. And practicing for THAT is going to make me a better fisherman in most all circumtances, thus making the sport even more enjoyable and relaxing.
To He11 with the hola-hoops.... Lets try to hit dinner plates and tea-cup saucers, at ALL distances! Now THAT may be a bit more of a measurement of a sucessful fly-fisherman. And practicing for THAT is going to make me a better fisherman in most all circumtances, thus making the sport even more enjoyable and relaxing.
Nope, it wasn't. But nice of you to think so. The question was about how far a cast you can do with a WF5F. My comment was about;
If you can show me where anyone anyplace at anytime ever hit past 160' with a WF5F line I'll eat my hat.
Let me give you an analogy. Person A tells person B while setting on his shiny new Schwinn, "I can get my bike up to 40 mph." Person B replies, "That's nothing. I got my bike up to 90 mph.", but fails to mention his is a dang Harley. Those 160 - 190 things are not with a real fly line and a real fly rod. They are a nonfishing rod with a seriously heavy shooting head and a thin mono running line. If you can tell me how that in any way has anything to do with how far the record cast is with a real WF5F line is, because I missed it
Plus one ditto. :thumbsupu
Maybe in a select few comps but for the most part the distance component scored less than the accuracy casts. This seems to be in a state of flux as of late so I might be wrong on this by todays standards but not too long ago the comps scored both accuracy and distance.
The accuracy was to a fly plate (more or less) at different distances and sometimes under or around obstructions to hit the plate and score. The targets I saw were three concentric rings of different sizes with the smallest ring (pie plate) scorring the most points.
With "NHL, NCIC (though I have no idea what that stands for) hockey, and NA$CAR", unless you are outstanding in those sports you generally get to sit on a couch and watch them. With casting comps all you have to do is show up to be a competitor.
caseywise
Well-known member
here we go again....must be winter
---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 AM ----------
btw, i think a 180' cast on a standard wf5 line is totally bogus. its just too good to be true, especially from a guy who has never been heard of.
another quick question-
how many of you guys actually fish in swimming pools
casey
---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 AM ----------
btw, i think a 180' cast on a standard wf5 line is totally bogus. its just too good to be true, especially from a guy who has never been heard of.
another quick question
-how many of you guys actually fish in swimming pools
casey
Absolutely knew it was a bogus claim. In fact after watching him sling a few, I'm quite sure I could have took him on myself.... It simply got me wondering though about what the record actually was.
---------- Post added at 12:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 AM ----------
I sense a competitive spirit..
I'll also step out on a limb and say if a guy can put it in a tea cup at 30 or 40yds, more times than not he can probabaly shoot one to the backing as well...
It simply got me wondering though about what the record actually was.---------- Post added at 12:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 AM ----------
Then you post about hitting plates and tea cup saucers?
I sense a competitive spirit..I'll also step out on a limb and say if a guy can put it in a tea cup at 30 or 40yds, more times than not he can probabaly shoot one to the backing as well...
theboz
Well-known member
Sounds a bit like delusions of grandeur. In 2001 I was witness to as well as participant in a casting for distance contest that determined placement in a fishing competition.
24 very competent casters (some well known) were given reels loaded with Cortlands newest line at the time 333 wf. After it was all over no one had gone farther then 79ft using 5wt rods and this line. After seeing those results first hand can't imagine anyone adding on 100 more ft of distance!
24 very competent casters (some well known) were given reels loaded with Cortlands newest line at the time 333 wf. After it was all over no one had gone farther then 79ft using 5wt rods and this line. After seeing those results first hand can't imagine anyone adding on 100 more ft of distance!
Pocono
Moderator
trout trekker
Well-known member
Dan,
Then I misunderstood your comments and I apologize.
The single hand rod, distance casting records and equipment specifications I posted, were to demonstrate how the these types of distances are achieved in competition.
I had thought that I’d made my point clear by providing a video of Steve Rajeff casting a five weight in the Best of the West completion. The Reps assertion of being able to cast the same type of rig 50% further than what was evidenced in the video, would be a stretch.
A light eleven weight shooting head on a nine weight rod is not a “ rediculously heavy shooting heads or overweighted heads”. For many anglers it would actually be a bit light. It’s pretty common fishing gear amongst west coast deep pelagic, striper, salmon and even on occasion steelhead anglers who still ply the waters with single handed rods and shooting heads.
Fire Instructor -
Hi Rick.,
For some those competitions are serious business, for others they are simply the “ casting games “. I count myself into the latter group.
I grew up just a couple of miles from the San Francisco’s Golden Gate Angling & Casting Club which are open to the public and watched some of the champion casters of today learning to cast, mature into young competitors and go on to win national titles.
At one time or another most all of the “names” in both casting and fly fishing would filter through that club to compete or to demonstrate, as would most of the rod and line designers of the day.
San Francisco has a rich history of fly fishing innovation and was home to Winston and Scott. Fly tying tool maker Frank Matarelli made the city by the bay his home, the list goes on and on. It’s often credited as the place where the shooting head was first developed and Sunset line and twine the original makers of Amnesia shooting lines was a local company as well. Steve & Tim Rajeff were local boys back then. So the tradition of distance casting games are kind of big deal around those parts.
Just being able to stand alongside some of the best casters in the world with your own rod in hand and to pick up casting tips is incredibly enlightening. So for me, all of these casting distance numbers are just like reading the box scores of a ball game. It’s the practical application of what comes out of all that purposeful practice and design philosophy that allows us to grow in the sport, if we choose to take that route.
If you were to travel to San Francisco sometime and stop by the casting ponds out in Golden Gate Park, you’d find a friendly group of very talented fly anglers. Who for the most part, also happen to be very good casters. If you expressed an interest in tuning up your casting skills or trying out some other type of equipment I’m sure they’d openly accommodate you. There’s also a good chance that the person you’d be casting with also happens to cast in tournaments and they probably do so just for fun, like playing a round of golf.
Best, TT
Then I misunderstood your comments and I apologize.
The single hand rod, distance casting records and equipment specifications I posted, were to demonstrate how the these types of distances are achieved in competition.
I had thought that I’d made my point clear by providing a video of Steve Rajeff casting a five weight in the Best of the West completion. The Reps assertion of being able to cast the same type of rig 50% further than what was evidenced in the video, would be a stretch.
A light eleven weight shooting head on a nine weight rod is not a “ rediculously heavy shooting heads or overweighted heads”. For many anglers it would actually be a bit light. It’s pretty common fishing gear amongst west coast deep pelagic, striper, salmon and even on occasion steelhead anglers who still ply the waters with single handed rods and shooting heads.
Fire Instructor -
Hi Rick.,
For some those competitions are serious business, for others they are simply the “ casting games “. I count myself into the latter group.
I grew up just a couple of miles from the San Francisco’s Golden Gate Angling & Casting Club which are open to the public and watched some of the champion casters of today learning to cast, mature into young competitors and go on to win national titles.
At one time or another most all of the “names” in both casting and fly fishing would filter through that club to compete or to demonstrate, as would most of the rod and line designers of the day.
San Francisco has a rich history of fly fishing innovation and was home to Winston and Scott. Fly tying tool maker Frank Matarelli made the city by the bay his home, the list goes on and on. It’s often credited as the place where the shooting head was first developed and Sunset line and twine the original makers of Amnesia shooting lines was a local company as well. Steve & Tim Rajeff were local boys back then. So the tradition of distance casting games are kind of big deal around those parts.
Just being able to stand alongside some of the best casters in the world with your own rod in hand and to pick up casting tips is incredibly enlightening. So for me, all of these casting distance numbers are just like reading the box scores of a ball game. It’s the practical application of what comes out of all that purposeful practice and design philosophy that allows us to grow in the sport, if we choose to take that route.
If you were to travel to San Francisco sometime and stop by the casting ponds out in Golden Gate Park, you’d find a friendly group of very talented fly anglers. Who for the most part, also happen to be very good casters. If you expressed an interest in tuning up your casting skills or trying out some other type of equipment I’m sure they’d openly accommodate you. There’s also a good chance that the person you’d be casting with also happens to cast in tournaments and they probably do so just for fun, like playing a round of golf.
Best, TT
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