How long is too long for a leader?

[busbus]

On my last "vacation" day, I was able to carve out about four hours early Friday morning to go fishing. I quickly packed up my gear and decided to use the old reel my son bought me for Christmas. I got to the lake and the sun was barely nosing its way over the horizon. The ducks and geese were noisily splashing and a rooster was starting to signal a new day is beginning.

It was going to be a good day...or so I thought!

As I was setting everything up, I was looking for a leader. OH NO!!! Where is one?! I could have sworn I put one in!! Darn it! There! There, in the vest! Yahoo!!

It wasn't the greatest leader. I was a furled monofilament leader somebody gave me when I first started fly fishing. I used it a lot when I was practicing on the lawn. It was wrapped around swing sets and trees and bushes and itself (a lot). I used it with my nine-foot five weight and it did me well. I never used it on the water as it was a little beat up.

Even though it was a little, ahem, tired, I had little choice but to use it. Problem was I was using my seven-foot four weight. I never gave it much thought until I was done setting things up and getting ready to start fishing.

It seemed wrong, somehow. Way too long. I thought, "Ahh, it will work just fine." I don't think it did. I was having a horrible time casting. It seemed difficult to lift the fly off the water. I usually lose flies to the vegetation but nothing like yesterday! I was twisted around stuff all morning. I rarely got a good cast. And it was really hard to get to the fish I did catch.

One thing it has taught me is that I really need to learn how to set the hook with my line hand instead of lifting the rod. That long leader made it extremely hard to set a hook by using the rod.

So my question is this: When is a leader too long? What is a good length for a leader? I am sure it is based upon rod length after yesterday. Or, probably more true, it is more based upon the situation and the fisherman.

Also, should I have maybe made it up by making a rather short tippet? Or should the tippet be longer than normal?

Or is it all just me?


Thanks,
ray

 

[noreaster]

I too use a 7 foot 4 wt. I met an accomplished nationally ranked fly fisherman one day on a large stream I fish. We shared patterns and talked shop. He said he never uses tapered or furled leaders just a piece of 4 or 6 lb test. He talked about how the added weight of the taper was not needed.
I have since given up on tapered or furled leaders and opt for aa piece of 4 lb test. I too have had the leader too long. It usually doesn't lay out straight or gets tangled in bush upon presentation.
I now use a leader that is about a foot or foot and half longer than the rod length. A bit shorter in tighter areas.

 

[james w 3 3]

I feel the leader is perhaps the most important element in my fishing, to the degree that I'll modify the leader just as often as I change the fly when things aren't working.

Tapered fluoro, tapered mono, furled thread, tippet size and length, all elements of the equation that changes day to day, or hour to hour.

There's no easy answer!

You just have to carry with you multiple options and solve the immediate puzzle.

 

[labradorguy]

I too use a 7 foot 4 wt. I met an accomplished nationally ranked fly fisherman one day on a large stream I fish. We shared patterns and talked shop. He said he never uses tapered or furled leaders just a piece of 4 or 6 lb test. He talked about how the added weight of the taper was not needed.

Yeah, but he's nationally ranked.... in Canada.

Just kidding Brother. I work in Canada and my best friends are in BC. I even tried to immigrate there after the last election. No dice. I was told that I don't quite qualify as a political refugee yet.

 

[noreaster]

Yeah, but he's nationally ranked.... in Canada.

Just kidding Brother. I work in Canada and my best friends are in BC. I even tried to immigrate there after the last election. No dice. I was told that I don't quite qualify as a political refugee yet.

Ouch! Here I always thought Canucks were in good standing as fly fishermen.
I used to busy myself with buying tapered leaders and such. At the end of the day the cost and time fiddleing with leaders and tippets and knots and time, I just said to heck with it and used tippet material as my leader. I am not casting long distances and have found the switch has had no deleterious effects on catching, so party on.
Maybe I am dumbing it down too much I don't know. But intuitively speaking, one long, single, knotless length of 4lb test makes for a nice seamless clear presentation of the fly, IMHO. How blasphemous is this?

 

[troutnut4]

one long, single, knotless length of 4lb test makes for a nice seamless clear presentation of the fly

I guess that you will never know unless you try it. I will give it a go, can't hurt my cast. I have been using Cutthroat furled leaders as of late and love them. Just add a short piece of tippet. As for labradorguy's immigration issue, maybe he used "tumbleweed" as his previous address when filling out the application. In Canada, we take just about anyone!

 

[silver creek]

The correct answer is when you cannot control the leader during a cast.

It varies with the rod, with the fly, with the tippet diameter and length, and even with the casting conditions. For example, casting with the wind you can cast a longer leader than casting against the wind. When casting a dry fly DOWNSTREAM and "feeding" the fly to the trout with a parachute cast, a longer leader can be used that when casting upstream.

A rule of thumb for is to start with a leader about the length of the fly rod. Modify the leader on stream as conditions change. I have used leaders up to 15 feet long on a 9 ft 5 wt fly rod for dry fly fishing and as short as 2 feet for streamer fishing on a sinking line.

 

[noreaster]

I guess that you will never know unless you try it. I will give it a go, can't hurt my cast. I have been using Cutthroat furled leaders as of late and love them. Just add a short piece of tippet. As for labradorguy's immigration issue, maybe he used "tumbleweed" as his previous address when filling out the application. In Canada, we take just about anyone!

I am sure one piece tippet leaders may have their shortcomings, like with distance, in current, or in wind casting, but what I may have lost doesn't seem to outweigh the performance and results I have had since I threw away the tapered leaders. Plus its easier cheaper and more efficient to carry just tippet material for leaders, saves time and get me more fishing in. it may be better for brassy head weighted flies as this was what the fly fisherman guy was using the time I spoke with him. He seemed to push simplicity over muddledness.

 

[fredaevans]

Interesting to read the 'take' on leaders for trout fishing. For bigger fish (Steelhead/Pacific Salmon) I've found that 9 foot is all that's needed. If a two fly set up that might move to 11.

Beyond that? = A waste of time and effort?:wiggle:

fae

 

[james w 3 3]

Maybe I am dumbing it down too much I don't know. But intuitively speaking, one long, single, knotless length of 4lb test makes for a nice seamless clear presentation of the fly, IMHO. How blasphemous is this?

Not at all!
Really, in using a 5' furled thread leader with a 5' tippet I'm doing exactly the same thing. I see this leader as just a very, very flexible end piece of my fly line, and the tippet (anywhere from 4'-7' and 4X-6X depending) is the leader.
If that's blasphemous so be it!
When I need the ultimate in presentation that's where I am.

 

[williamhj]

To what silver said, I'll add that if you're fishing for large fish alone with lighter tippet then you want to be sure you can net the fish without getting the knot into the top guides. If you can grab the leader without breaking off that's great but if you can't then a really long leader can make tough to net a fish alone.

 

[labradorguy]

Ouch! Here I always thought Canucks were in good standing as fly fishermen.
I used to busy myself with buying tapered leaders and such. At the end of the day the cost and time fiddleing with leaders and tippets and knots and time, I just said to heck with it and used tippet material as my leader. I am not casting long distances and have found the switch has had no deleterious effects on catching, so party on.
Maybe I am dumbing it down too much I don't know. But intuitively speaking, one long, single, knotless length of 4lb test makes for a nice seamless clear presentation of the fly, IMHO. How blasphemous is this?

Here's the deal.... If you found something that is working for you, I say roll with it and who cares if it is "technically" correct or not? So many people over complicate things by taking everything down to the gnat's ass, and they still can't make a decent cast. It's just fishing eh. If you're having success, and what you're doing is working for you, more power to you. I'm going to give it a try this afternoon.

 

[ditz]

50 or 60' is probably too long.......I like to use as short a leader as will work and catch fish. ........I generally use a furaled leader and a 2 or 3' tippet. I sometimes use a 20 to 50# butt of 3 or 4' and a tippet of what ever I need for the situation. I also have not problem using a straight leader. Whatever works and is easy and catches fish. Oh, and cheap

---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------

50 or 60' is probably too long.......I like to use as short a leader as will work and catch fish. ........I generally use a furaled leader and a 2 or 3' tippet. I sometimes use a 20 to 50# butt of 3 or 4' and a tippet of what ever I need for the situation. I also have not problem using a straight leader. Whatever works and is easy and catches fish. Oh, and cheap.. I try to never use over a 7 to 9' leader/tippet combo.

 

[labradorguy]

As for labradorguy's immigration issue, maybe he used "tumbleweed" as his previous address when filling out the application. In Canada, we take just about anyone!

I noticed that when I was in Vancouver.... I was actually somewhat insulted at the rejection. I had figured being educated, employed, and self-sufficient was a good thing... Not so it would seem. I guess your government wants everyone to be dependent upon them just like ours does. God help us all.

 

[noreaster]

Here's the deal.... If you found something that is working for you, I say roll with it and who cares if it is "technically" correct or not? So many people over complicate things by taking everything down to the gnat's ass, and they still can't make a decent cast. It's just fishing eh. If you're having success, and what you're doing is working for you, more power to you. I'm going to give it a try this afternoon.

Cool, I suppose all tthe technicality down to the gnats ass may be necessary in some cases. If fish are hard to reach or conditions are super sensitive or if the fish are well educated. Many things go into the recipe for success. I guess the fish in our waters are less picky and less educated. Although would like to hit some 4 or 6 pounders someday. Maybe they'll need a more discerning technical approach.

 

[busbus]

The correct answer is when you cannot control the leader during a cast.

Okay! Sort of the answer I thought I would get. Actually, "It depends" seem to be the consensus, for the most part. And I think a large part of my problem is that I should go in the backyard and practice more--much more.

That said, I still think it was way too long. I think the leader/tippet combination was probably more than a foot longer than my rod. I am not good enough to cast all that stuff. And it is probably the reason I was having a hard time getting to the fish I did manage to catch.

Thanks, guys!!


ray

 

[smilingduck]

With a longer leader you will also need to keep your back cast up higher so it doesn't get into trees or whatever. Better yet just roll cast if your getting caught in your back cast if your a good roll caster you can just use that cast all day. Why not you won't be wasting time false casting and tangeling up your rig.

Fredaevans- On still waters and large spring creeks sometimes a 9' leader with 4'-5' of tippet to really stay away from wary trout can make a difference at times. These are gin clear rivers and lakes where that extra few feet make a difference. I might not always lay the cast out perfectly but stripping in the slack will straighten it all if even necessary. I have even used longer leaders.

Take care

 

[spm]

A rule of thumb for is to start with a leader about the length of the fly rod. Modify the leader on stream as conditions change. I have used leaders up to 15 feet long on a 9 ft 5 wt fly rod for dry fly fishing and as short as 2 feet for streamer fishing on a sinking line.

Excellent point!

I also like the comment from labradorguy about not over-thinking it (My problem, usually), and if something is working for you, roll with it.

Good thread and lots of good comments.

spm

 

[bigjim5589]

I adopted the philosophy long ago of using the shortest I can get away with. Lefty Kreh advised the same in one of his demonstrations to a club in which I was a member many years ago. He pretty much said what Silver Creek said, and "about rod length" is a good general rule of thumb for length, but he went on to say that there can be reasons to go longer or shorter as the need dictates. He used the example of the line splashing on the water when dry fly fishing being one reason that a longer leader/tippet combination might be necessary to get the fly further away from that line splash, or even the shadow that might be cast by the line. But, he continued that with a big popper, such as for bass or Bluefish that same line splash may or may not be an issue. All depends on the situation.

Since I rarely use dry flies, seldom have I used a leader & tippet combination over 10' in length, and probably more so closer to 8'.

However, the leader also has to compliment the rod & line & fly. The heavier you go with line or fly, or the bulkier with fly, the heavier the leader needs to be in many situations. This becomes especially important with big, weighted flies. A single strand of 4lb may be fine with a size 16 dry fly & a 2, 3 or 4 wt (or 5 or 6 wt in some cases), but not likely the ideal leader for a size 2 streamer or popper & a 7 or 8 wt line.

I use tapered leaders primarily, but with subsurface or sometimes big, bulky surface flies, may go to a shorter, single strand, but heavy like 20lb test. In this case momentum is often what carries the fly, so the leader is not really "turning over" the fly. I still want it stout enough to handle the fly without hinging.

The length, & sizing is about control. I know I've been guilty of over thinking leaders & tippets in the past too because it's a subject I also found confusing, but once I realized what Lefty had said about "shortest to do the job", it became very simple & less confusing.

 

[cab]

Okay! Sort of the answer I thought I would get. Actually, "It depends" seem to be the consensus, for the most part. And I think a large part of my problem is that I should go in the backyard and practice more--much more.

That said, I still think it was way too long. I think the leader/tippet combination was probably more than a foot longer than my rod. I am not good enough to cast all that stuff. And it is probably the reason I was having a hard time getting to the fish I did manage to catch.

Thanks, guys!!


ray

Judging by this thread; you need more time on the water, where it matters. Go forth and FISH!!!!

CAB