Which will cast a heavier fly - fluoro or mono?

[harryhh]

I have a 9ft, 5wt rod with WF5F line. I'm fishing for bass and trying to push the size fly I can cast with my outfit.

I was wondering if it makes a difference, given the same test leader and tippet, which will cast a larger fly, fluorocarbon or mono?

Thanks,
Harry

 

[fyshstykr]

Interesting question. I don't think it would make any difference at all.

 

[itchmesir]

I'd find it hard to believe that it'd make enough difference to matter.

 

[harryhh]

What has made me question this is that some fluorocarbon lines have a smaller diameter than mono per lb. test. I thought this might give less air resistance.

Also, although I've never used a fluorocarbon line, I'm aware that it is denser, harder, and more abrasion resistant. This makes me think that it is stiffer than mono. My un-knowledgeable impression is that a stiffer leader and tippet might cast a larger fly with a little more resistance to tailing loops.

Since I'm trying to push my 5wt outfit, I'm looking for all the edge I can get.

Harry

 

[silver creek]

Since I'm trying to push my 5wt outfit, I'm looking for all the edge I can get.

Harry

Whether the leader is nylon mono or fluorocarbon will not matter much.

You probably know this but to cast a heavier fly, here are the most effective steps to take in the following order.

1 - the best choice is to up-line the fly rod. Try a 6 wt line and if the 5 wt rod is a very fast action, try a 7 weight line. See if you can borrow reels with these lines.

2. - If you can up-line the rod with a bass bug taper fly line that is front loaded, that will cast a heavier fly further.

3. - Use a shorter leader with a thicker tippet. A shorter leader with a thicker tippet will turn over a larger fly than a longer leader with a smaller tippet.

4. - Improving you casting skills could/should be #1. Learn the double haul and learn to shoot line into the backcast before your final forward cast.

 

[harryhh]

My own additional thoughts on this question.

Again, I'm new to fly fishing, so take this with a grain of salt.

The fairly small difference between a 5X and a 3X leader can make a noticeable difference in the size fly you can cast. So, relatively small differences in leaders can make a noticeable difference.

Why does a shorter leader allow larger flies? One factor I've read is better transfer of energy to the fly. But, one other factor might be because of less overall air resistance? So, a thinner leader of the same length would have even less air resistance.

Why does a heavier leader allow larger flies? Even though it has more air resistance, it has another important factor. It's stiffer. So, if my assumption that fluorocarbon is stiffer than mono, and stiffness imports fly casting ability, fluorocarbon might be able to cast a larger fly than mono.

Even if all of this is true and the fluorocarbon allows larger flies, the difference might be too small to notice. On the other hand, if small differences in leader make noticeable differences in fly size castability, perhaps fluorocarbon would make a noticeable difference.

---------- Post added at 11:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 PM ----------

I would love to be able to try a different line but I live in north central Illinois. The corn fields of Wyanet. Not exactly the fly fishing capital.

All of the things you say are true. I would like to try a 6wt bass taper line if I could. Maybe someday I'll find one.

While my thoughts about fluorocarbon line seem logical, you would think someone would have noticed any difference by now. But, sometimes simple things get past us humans for a long time.

 

[runningfish]

Have you heard of Polyleaders? check them out.

 

[harryhh]

Thanks for the tip about Polyleaders. Looks interesting. I check into them some more.

 

[silver creek]

My own additional thoughts on this question.

Why does a shorter leader allow larger flies? One factor I've read is better transfer of energy to the fly. But, one other factor might be because of less overall air resistance? So, a thinner leader of the same length would have even less air resistance.

Why does a heavier leader allow larger flies?

The answer lies again in physics.

1. When we cast a fly a given distance we do Work. Work is define as a applying a force over a given distance. A shorter leader means the Kinetic Energy (KE) in moving leader has to do less Work. So the longer the leader, the more work it has to do and more energy it has to have.

2. A thinner leader has less mass and therefore has less KE for identical velocity than a thicker leader. Air resistance for identical shaped objects is proportional to surface area. For a tubular object, mass can be thought of a cross sectional mass density with the mass proportional to the area of a circle and air resistance as proportional to the circumference of the circle.

Since the area of a circle varies with R^2 and the circumference varies with R (where R is the radius of the line/leader), the mass of a fly line and a leader increases much faster than surface area. So although, you are correct the thinner leaders have less air resistance, they have mush less mass and the decrease in air resistance does not make up for the decrease in KE.

3. So a thick short leader has two things going for it. Greater mass for greater KE and that KE has to do less work.

4. The mass to thickness relationship I noted it point (2) is why a thicker fly line is needed to cast heavier and more wind resistant flies.

Thinks about this. If wind resistance went up in exactly the same way as mass does, the extra wind resistance of a thicker fly line would cancel the advantage of extra mass in thicker fly lines. So a curious fly fisher would have come at this from the other direction to reach the same conclusion. He/she would have asked why does a thicker fly line more easily cast a heavier fly? This is the opposite question of what leader is needed to cast a heavier fly. The answer to both is the relationship of mass to surface area in a lines and leaders.

 

[wjc]

Get a heavier line with a short head as Silver has said. Using thicker leaders - even to 20lb test tippets- is fine for bass.

With the notable exception of the Sharkskin , most salt water floatiing lines do not float as high in the water as their freshwater brothers because they are move dense - not because they weigh more.

This means they "sail" less in the wind and are able to penetrate it easier due a larger weight divided by circumference ratio.

You will lose less distance due to aerodynamic drag with most salt water floating lines as compared to freshwater.

When looking at lines, check the line profile and the total head length. A short head will give you greater distance with less line out of the rod tip. They will also minimize rod-leg line sag ("droop" or "slack line") when you have less than optimal backcast line speed or loop size/shape during a casting cycle.

 

[timd]

Leader construction is critical to turning over heavier flys. Use a leader that is 50 to 60% butt section. I would use 30 or 40# mono and then work down to 15 for bass. Something in the 7.5' to 8.5' range should work well.

 

[harryhh]

Thanks for your thoughts and information folks.

Since no-one seemed to notice that a flroro cast better than a mono, I started thinking that there is little or no difference. That the shorter leader works because, as it's said, it delivers more energy to the fly, and wind resistance has little to do with it. That a heavier leader works simply because it is heavier and has more ability to control the fly, instead of the fly controlling it.

Silver Creek's science lesson is half beyond me. But, it does in some ways seem to support my thoughts. Given that fluoro is more dense, heavier than mono, given the same cross sectional area it should cast a heavy fly better. Also, usually, but not always, a more dense material is less porous, giving it less wind resistance. That might add a little to the casting ability of fluoro. With fluoro, given the same diameter, we have more mass to cast the fly, and perhaps less air resistance.

One other thing to consider is that mono absorbs water, but I don't think it becomes as heavy as fluoro. As far as I know, fluoro sinks faster than wet mono.

I'm going to try and test this myself. I have some 17lb stren mono and have ordered some 17lb stren fluorocast. But, I don't think I have the casting ability to test this very well. And the test should probably be done inside under controlled conditions using a wet waterlogged mono, and perhaps wet flies also.

Still, I don't think there can be very much difference if no-one has noticed any. But, I sure would like to see a good test done.:worthy:

---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 PM ----------

Leader construction is critical to turning over heavier flys. Use a leader that is 50 to 60% butt section. I would use 30 or 40# mono and then work down to 15 for bass. Something in the 7.5' to 8.5' range should work well.

Thanks timd,

I didn't really think of using a leader starting out that big, but I guess there's no reason not to. Sounds like it would help a lot.

Harry

---------- Post added at 12:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------

Sorry folks, my quotes aren't working like I thought they would. They don't come out as separate posts. I'm not very good with forum stuff.

That's okay. Don't bother to give instructions. I'll figure it out one day.

Harry

 

[rangerrich99]

Okay, here's my two cents: Having fished a lot of heavy, wind-resistant flies over the past few years, I tried what you're getting ready to try. The short answer to your OP is yes, flouro is by its nature stiffer than mono by diameter. Companies sell flouro line that is close to mono in limpness by decreasing the diameter of the line.

however, if you're casting big bugs, then test strength stops being an issue; I fish 20 lb. flouro for its relative stiffness. Flouro does sink a bit faster than mono, but if you look up its density, you'll find it is only slightly more dense than mono. What that means is that flouro tends to sink beneath the surface tension of water quicker than mono.

Bass taper fly line will probably make the biggest immediate difference in your ability to cast big bugs.

Another route you can take to increase cast-ability of big bugs is to use a section of braided fishing line, i.e.; SpiderWire, as your leader. Again, I use a 6 ft. 25 lb. piece, then tie a 2-3 ft. piece of 'tippet' to that (usually just a piece of 16 lb. mono or flouro). This works because braided line is totally limp with no memory, soaks up water like a sponge which adds weight, blah blah blah . . . kind of a poor man's furled leader/poly leader.

Note: I use leader sections with less break strength than the fly line (usually about 30 lb.) in the event I snag the bottom, I can break the leader, not my fly line.

anyway, hope some of that helps.

Peace.

 

[harryhh]

Thanks rangerrich99,

Every little bit helps.

I'm getting so much information from this and other posts, I'm going to have to copy and paste it into a word document. Things to try out.

Harry

 

[kosix]

So back to the question. Mono or flouro leader.

Answer for a big heavy and wind resistant bug very little , the difference in density and hence mass between the two line types inconsequential compared to the weight of the bug and it's air resistance.

there is a law of physics conservation of energy which says the energy of a system remains constant. It can't disappear it can only be changed into another form.

Kinetic energy is the energy of moving objects.

Heat , light and gravitational potential energy are other forms.

In a fly casting model the two most important ones are probably kinetic energy and heat.


In the casting system you have two opposing effects :
1 drag or air resistance that works to slow down the loop and the fly. This happens because some kinetic energy of fly and line is transferred as movement of air and some heat all due to air resistance.
2. The dynamics of an unrolling loop that works to speed up the fly. Conservation of kinetic energy. As a loop rolls out. The mass of the moving part of the line reduces ie it gets shorter, and as this happens because energy is conserved the moving part of the line speeds up. The fact that a line tapers also means this effect is magnified. This is how we can make the end of a whip travel faster than the speed of sound which is why it cracks.mini sonic boom.

So what keeps the system going? The energy the caster adds to the system with his arm via the rod.

---------- Post added at 05:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:42 PM ----------

To get your big to roll out you need to make it go faster.

You can do this by:

1 using a heavy fly line = more energy to fight the loss due to air resistance of the bug


2 use a shorter leader. Once the loop passes from fly line to just leader and fly , the majority of energy will be in the big fly(it weighs a lot more than leader). So how far further the fly goes , how long a leader it could extend is all about how much energy fly has, how fast it was going at the time of transfer. Basically with big flies playing around with the leader thickness and tapers design will have only marginal impact on how far the leader can roll out.

3. Faster line speed and tighter loops also helps.

 

[harryhh]

Everybody adds another interesting piece of information.:icon_smil

Harry

 

[wjc]

Harry,

Thought I'd add this real quick. Cork bodied poppers are easier to cast than foam because they are heavier. The leader does not have to be heavy to "turn them over". The will keep going all by themselves, and drag the leader along behind them. Compare throwing an expanded foam popper with you arm to a similar cork one thrown with your arm.

What the thicker leader does is resist sharp bending and remain in a loop at the end of the cast instead of fouling on the popper. With fluffy air-resistant flies and light density foam, the air drag is greater than the energy in the fly, and it will collapse if not pulled along by the energy in the leader - hence the use of heavy, short leaders.

Cork, in my opinion, also results in a higher hookup ratio than light foam. The latter, I believe, is often pushed out of the way, or maybe even out of the fish's mouth itself, by the water disturbance at the hit. If you do use foam, use dense, heavy foam.

Deer fur also makes for good hookup ratios because it does not float so high like foam and get pushed around by waves/ripples. It is harder to cast, however, than cork due to the lighter weight.

Also, make your poppers so the body is expoxied to the hook as high as possible to preserve all the the hook gap. You need hooks with a bend in the shank so it does not spin and takes expoxy well. You can make them from cheap freshwater long shanked hooks with three nails in a bench vise. You may snap a few till you get the hang of it, but not many.

 

[bigjim5589]

Harry, some great info posted here as always by this fine group! :thumbsup:

The question concerning fluoro versus mono has been answered & I'll agree it won't matter as far as the material is concerned. Stiffness & diameter can certainly be considerations with either.

I'm sure you've read my past posts about big flies & heavy rods. My approach is pretty much what others have said with shorter, heavier leaders & tippets, plus the heavier rods. As noted there is of course some casting difference between "heavy" and "wind resistant", but for the most part they are generally handled in the same manner.

My question to you is, how big or heavy are you attempting to go with your 5 wt, and how far are you trying to cast?

I have in the past cast both heavy & wind resistant flies with my 6 wt. Flies that might normally be best suited for at minimum an 8 wt. The issue becomes distance, and I can honestly say I didn't cast such flies very far, under 30 ft, but in the situation I didn't need to cast further.

My point here is that regardless of all your efforts, with flies of certain weight or wind resistance, you will have a difficult time achieving any appreciable distance. There are always limits, and it all goes back to what Silver has stated. You won't cast beyond what the physics will allow.

In the utmost perfect conditions, you may find that you will cast further than in poorer conditions, but most times we don't get perfect conditions very often.

It might help your cause to also consider the flies you're attempting to use. There are many today that utilize lighter weight materials, yet still provide a broader profile. Although a slimmer profile, yet additional length can be as effective & cast much easier. If you are set on using specific patterns that are inherently heavier or wind resistant , then you'll likely find it more difficult to attain much more distance with the limits of your 5 wt, of course depending on what that distance may be you're attempting.

In other words, all your additional efforts may not yield much in the way of appreciable results. In the end, you may simply need a heavier rod!

 

[pszy22]

I don't know the definitive answer to the original question.

I do know something that may be related, then again, maybe not. I personally know at least a couple hundred folks who fish with a single strand main line on their fixed-length line rods (tenkara if you will). The scoreboard for flouro vs. mono is as follows -

Flouro - couple hundred
Mono - 0

So at least in terms as what fishes best as a 10 - 12 foot long leader (more or less), it's not even close as to which performs the best.

Again, whether or not that has any pertinence to the original question, I'm not sure.

 

[turbineblade]

Silver Creek and many others have really nailed this topic -- but you do not need to understand complex physics to have success with a leader. I know they won't mind me saying this .

For heavy flies, just use a shorter overall leader with a heavier butt and tippet than you'd use for a dry fly. The more wind, the heavier and shorter you generally want to use.

For bass that might be a 15 pound tippet, or maybe a 8-10 pound tippet, or up to a 20 pound tippet.

Leaders do not have to be exact -- just tie one up in the ballpark and clip it back if you need to. Your ability to modify your leader to match the conditions you experience on the water is the real KEY. I do it all the time .