The cast...specifically the last 2 seconds!

[photoguy]

Far from a good caster here, but I do OK. Reasonably good distance and form, all things considered.

My question has to do with the very last second of the cast, just as the fly line is hitting the water. Typically, I get a nice gently dropping and unrolling of the fly line BUT, with the leader not continuing in a straight line and instead essentially dropping the fly right where the leader/fly line connect....maybe a foot in front of the connection if I'm lucky. (and I can see that the leader has a curl at that point).

I've tried a few things: making sure that the leader is straight, changing arm and hand positions at the conclusion of the cast, etc, but none seem to be having much affect. On occasion I will get a nice unrolling of the fly line and leader but it's the exception rather than the rule and it's a little bewildering to try and figure out what (if) I did to make that happen.

I'm sure it's easier to do than to explain, but any input is appreciated!

 

[Ard]

If I have that happen it tells me to add a little more energy / speed in the middle of the final forward stroke and then to make a slightly higher and more abrupt stop of the rod. Generally when I make that adjustment I can straighten the leader better.

Once you have the leader straightening thing under control it is time to learn to mend at the very moment the fly is about to land. Like many things this is much easier to demonstrate than to explain. I make a simple wrist roll as the line & leader are unfurling and place an upstream hook in the line belly as it lands. This avoids having the fly land - begin the drift - but then being jerked or swept under in reaction to the angler trying to make the mend once the fly is on the water. This technique is simple and you can quickly learn to adjust your distance to allow for the mended loop / hook placed into the floating line.

I see a lot of people put a cast / fly right where it needs to be only to then move it toward them when they execute an upstream mend. When you learn to put that mend down right along with the fly you will be ensured of a good drift for the beginning of the float. Additional mending is often needed but generally we cast just above the area where we believe the fish is at. When your fly lands and begins a good drift only to be disturbed by its reaction to your mending of the line as an afterthought many fish are put down by the reaction of the fly to the mend.

It may sound like it doesn't matter or that it may be difficult. The hardest part is training your mind & hand to instinctively do the mend as the line is striking the water. Once you have it down there is only one disturbance when the line & fly land, not 2 or 3 as you make line mends.

Hope that is helpful,

Ard

 

[photoguy]

It's very helpful! Thanks for taking the time to answer. Next, it's off to the backyard to try and put this into practice a little bit.

 

[comeonavs]

Exactly what Ard said, someone else will have more detail to why. I find it specifically I get lazy and faster action rods don't like lazy casts.

A little more line speed will help fix that with a faster action rod. my slower ones are a little more forgiving it seems in this certain aspect of the fly cast. Now slower rods are less forgiving at other things.

 

[Ard]

I realize that many can practice in the yard and it's better than no casting but water will work out all the flaws. The turnover can be worked on by lawn casting but the mend thing will need water.

If you try a simple exercise when you get to a stream you'll see what I am describing. Make a normal cast using a dry fly, then after it has settled on the water do your normal upstream mending movements. Watch the line - leader and fly react to the mending as you throw the upstream loops.

The movement of the fly should be upstream and towards you. This happens regardless of whether you are using dries - or wets. No matter what you are using as a fly you generally will cast it to the distance you think it should be in order to drift or swing through the place you believe that there is a fish. Depending on conditions and the type of fishing, dries or subsurface, the fish may see the fly and leader reacting to your line controls or if you are fishing subsurface you will draw the fly closer to you and lose perhaps an important part of the drift - swing presentation.

I know that this was not the focus of your original question here but I see the 'getting the leader to unfurl' as being a simple fix however almost every person who comes to fish with me has this mending problem. In a nutshell the whole idea is for you to figure out how to get mended / slack line into a cast without affecting the fly after it has landed.

Some of the things I focus on may seem insignificant in the whole of casting and trying to catch fish but they are things that I have come to believe sometimes make the difference between my being successful or not. So I occasionally try to tell others what I have found to be useful.

 

[photoguy]

Gotta go out and get a really long extension cord so I can put the desktop computer stream side to read/practice!



Thanks all for adding info, very helpful. First in the process for me is to read, think about, understand, then internalize and then to try and put it all together in 'real life'.

Wash, rinse repeat,wash, rinse, repeat....

 

[Ard]

You'll be way ahead by doing that, not everyone will want to take their entire life to figure out something that should be simple. That's the beauty of this forum, it has allowed many of us to share some things that have helped others. Without the forum it would be impossible for you to get any advice from some guy in Alaska whether the advise were helpful or not.

Always feel free to contact me here if you have any questions about what I say should work. If you don't get a fast reply that means I'm out there practicing what I preach

Ard

 

[photoguy]

If you don't get a fast reply that means I'm out there practicing what I preach

Ard

They have lawns in Alaska?



<and agreed this forum is a terrific resource>

 

[imxer]

Quote from Ard's first post

"If I have that happen it tells me to add a little more energy / speed in the middle of the final forward stroke and then to make a slightly higher and more abrupt stop of the rod. Generally when I make that adjustment I can straighten the leader better."
--------------------------------
I agree with Ard about this and use it along with the so called "reach cast".
Look up this cast on youtube etc. I find it easier than mending and you can leave the extension cord at home.
Not saying you should not learn to mend, you will use it more often than the reach cast.
Paul

 

[busbus]

Once you have the leader straightening thing under control it is time to learn to mend at the very moment the fly is about to land. Like many things this is much easier to demonstrate than to explain. I make a simple wrist roll as the line & leader are unfurling and place an upstream hook in the line belly as it lands. This avoids having the fly land - begin the drift - but then being jerked or swept under in reaction to the angler trying to make the mend once the fly is on the water. This technique is simple and you can quickly learn to adjust your distance to allow for the mended loop / hook placed into the floating line.

I see a lot of people put a cast / fly right where it needs to be only to then move it toward them when they execute an upstream mend. When you learn to put that mend down right along with the fly you will be ensured of a good drift for the beginning of the float. Additional mending is often needed but generally we cast just above the area where we believe the fish is at. When your fly lands and begins a good drift only to be disturbed by its reaction to your mending of the line as an afterthought many fish are put down by the reaction of the fly to the mend.

Something finally went off in my head when I read this, Ard. Am I correct in what "mending" is? From what I understand, it is to help keep the fly from dragging because the current in a stream is different across the stream. If you cast toward the bank, the water is probably moving slower at that point than in the middle of the stream. If your line is straight, the line in the middle of the stream would rush downstream faster than the end of the line near the bank, thus dragging the fly. And making it look funky to the fish.

To "mend" means to understand how much faster different sections of water are running and make sure you get enough of the middle of the line far enough upstream so the fly does not get drug after a while, right?

I hope this is right because that is what sprung to my mind after reading Ard's explanation.

Now, how do I put this into action? Ard said, "I make a simple wrist roll as the line & leader are unfurling and place an upstream hook in the line belly as it lands."

I agree: easier said than done! I can't really envision this. Let's say I am right-handed and I am standing in a stream with my right-hand side facing downstream. If I cast across and upstream, i need to get extra line "mended" upstream. I can't see how I twist my wrist to my left to get that mending loop? I am trying to twist my wrist to the left but it don't go too far! Maybe I am thinking this all wrong.

I understand totally that you don't want to make multiple disturbances when you can make just one but I am trying to figure out 'how' to mend.

That said, I still have the original problem photoguy is having, so I need to first work on that before I get too deep into mending. I certainly am not a good caster but I do have fun when I get a chance to get out and actually (try to) fish.



ray

---------- Post added at 03:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:29 PM ----------

This is what I read about the Reach Cast: The reach cast allows you to throw a mend into your line before the fly hits the water. Cast directly across the river, and, just as the line straightens out, extend your arm and the rod tip upstream (or downstream, as the case may be). This will cause the line to fall diagonally across the current, which means that the fly has time to dead-drift before the line catches up. This technique works best in slower water and in deep pools where the differences in current are not very great.


Makes a lot of sense. I think I do this naturally way too often! And it is probably one way I am messing up my casts!

I also wonder why I cast better on the lawn than I do on the water. I do things "right" on the lawn but I get all messed up once I am on the water.

 

[silver creek]

Once you have the leader straightening thing under control it is time to learn to mend at the very moment the fly is about to land. Like many things this is much easier to demonstrate than to explain. I make a simple wrist roll as the line & leader are unfurling and place an upstream hook in the line belly as it lands. This avoids having the fly land - begin the drift - but then being jerked or swept under in reaction to the angler trying to make the mend once the fly is on the water. This technique is simple and you can quickly learn to adjust your distance to allow for the mended loop / hook placed into the floating line.

I see a lot of people put a cast / fly right where it needs to be only to then move it toward them when they execute an upstream mend. When you learn to put that mend down right along with the fly you will be ensured of a good drift for the beginning of the float. Additional mending is often needed but generally we cast just above the area where we believe the fish is at. When your fly lands and begins a good drift only to be disturbed by its reaction to your mending of the line as an afterthought many fish are put down by the reaction of the fly to the mend.

Ard

Something finally went off in my head when I read this, Ard. Am I correct in what "mending" is? From what I understand, it is to help keep the fly from dragging because the current in a stream is different across the stream. If you cast toward the bank, the water is probably moving slower at that point than in the middle of the stream. If your line is straight, the line in the middle of the stream would rush downstream faster than the end of the line near the bank, thus dragging the fly. And making it look funky to the fish.

To "mend" means to understand how much faster different sections of water are running and make sure you get enough of the middle of the line far enough upstream so the fly does not get drug after a while, right?

I hope this is right because that is what sprung to my mind after reading Ard's explanation.

Now, how do I put this into action? Ard said, "I make a simple wrist roll as the line & leader are unfurling and place an upstream hook in the line belly as it lands."

I agree: easier said than done! I can't really envision this. Let's say I am right-handed and I am standing in a stream with my right-hand side facing downstream. If I cast across and upstream, i need to get extra line "mended" upstream. I can't see how I twist my wrist to my left to get that mending loop? I am trying to twist my wrist to the left but it don't go too far! Maybe I am thinking this all wrong.

I understand totally that you don't want to make multiple disturbances when you can make just one but I am trying to figure out 'how' to mend.

That said, I still have the original problem photoguy is having, so I need to first work on that before I get too deep into mending. I certainly am not a good caster but I do have fun when I get a chance to get out and actually (try to) fish.

ray

Reading the water, how to rig a strike indicator, how to double haul, etc, are shown in videos and books. But mending is a skill that is less often shown on videos because there are so many variations and it is difficult to illustrate other than a generic upstream on-the-water mend or an in-the-air reach mend. Many fly fishers don't learn much more than that.

So I would say before you cast, ask yourself what do I want the fly to do and what are the mends that I can do to make the fly do that. Mending is a skill that can make the difference between fishing a lie just like every other fly fisher or presenting the fly like others before you COULD not.

Simply put, a mend is a repositioning the fly line and leader. There are two types of mends - In The Air Mends (ITAM) and On The Water Mends (OTWM).

An ITAM is performed by moving the rod tip after the rod stop to reposition the fly line as it unfurls in the air. The sooner after the stop you move the rod tip, the closer the mend will be to the fly. ITAMs are ALWAYS better than OTWMs because the line/leader lands in a position to counter drag and give you more time to perform OTWMs.

Beginners have a difficult time determining where and how to mend. Where in the line/leader system do you place the mend and how much of a mend do you place? This is information a beginner needs to know before they can mend. I have an easy solution.

The most efficient mend is the "mirror" image mend. To discover what the mirror image is, make a straight line cast across current to the target. The straight fly line and leader will be displaced by the differential current(s). The best mend that maintains fly accuracy and corrects for current is to make mends that are the opposite or mirror images of the fly line and leader displacement.

If the current seams are highly varied, the a pile/puddle or wiggle/S mends may be the best options. But if there is just one curve, a mirror image mend placed in that location is the best option.

If you can do a mirror image ITAM before the fly even lands, the fly will drift drag free because the mend corrects for the drag of the irregular flow. That is theoretical, but even an imperfect ITAM will give you more time for a follow up OTWM.

For an OTWM, you can move the rod tip in the form of a large letter “C.” You flip the rod tip UPSTREAM up and around in a curve. This flips the line in a curve upstream.

For an ITAM that would precede the OTWM, the simplest mend would be a REACH MEND cast. Immediately after rod stop of the cast and before the fly, leader and line lands, MOVE and REACH the rod upstream so the line/leader lands upstream of the fly.

The thing that newbies do NOT realize with aerial mends is that there is often the need to adjust the length of the cast cast to hit the target. When you perform an aerial mend, the mend repositions the fly line that is casted and the fly will not land on the target unless you compensate for the mend.

Think about a simple right reach mend. It can be thought of as a triangle.



The angler is at corner "C" and the target is at apex "A". So "AC" is the length of a cast from the angler to the target A. When you perform a right reach mend to place the rod tip along the hypotenuse "AB", the length of fly line and leader needed to land on the target will be different than a a cast along the original path "AC".

The length of side AB is longer that AC. Since AC also includes the part of the length of the fly rod, the fly line cast along AC will be shorter than along AB

For most mends, there will be a need to shoot line into the cast because the slack line introduced into the cast by the mend requires that more line be used for the fly to land on the target.

I believe it is more important to practice mends with a target area just as it is to practice with targets for regular casting. Otherwise you will always be off when you mend and you won't know why.

Here is Jason Borger making a right reach mend from Gary’s instruction below.

Gary Borger » Reach Mend

I demonstrated above the reason that many INTA mends may require shooting some extra line into the cast to account for the extra slack line for the mend if the fly is land on target. This principle also applies for OTWM as well. If the OTWM requires additional slack line, you must add line as you do in OTWM. So as you do that “C” motion with the rod tip, throwing a little extra line will give you a longer drag free float.

Think about what is actually happening when you mend and you will often find the need for extra fly line.

 

[Ard]

I agree: easier said than done! I can't really envision this. Let's say I am right-handed and I am standing in a stream with my right-hand side facing downstream. If I cast across and upstream, i need to get extra line "mended" upstream. I can't see how I twist my wrist to my left to get that mending loop? I am trying to twist my wrist to the left but it don't go too far! Maybe I am thinking this all wrong.

Hi Ray,

That wrist roll I mentioned is to the right or left depending on the current direction. The 'roll' results in the energy being sent down the rod shaft to the tip and it is the tip that then sends energy down the fly line creating the loop / belly in the line in the direction opposing the current.

Over the years I don't know how many thousand days I have spent fishing, more than one I know that. During that expanse of time & days I just became accustomed to making a mend at the same moment as the fly is unfurling to strike the water.

Maybe there is a name for what I do, maybe someone has published the technique and it is widely known. however, as I did say earlier nearly 100% of the people I fish with wait until the fly has settled and began its downstream voyage before they do any mending. It's as if the mending is an afterthought triggered when they realize that the fly is being dragged by the current almost immediately after it lands.

To put is plainly, after I developed my current habitual line control patterns I began catching more fish. I find that control is even more critical fishing my streamers. With a dry fly you can see what's happening, subsurface you don't see any of the undesirable things which affect the fly as it makes its course through the water. A very easy way to become acquainted with what a submerged streamer is doing in relation to your line manipulations is to tie a big white marabou fly to a floating line. With that high visibility fly on the leader and in clear water conditions make a short cast of maybe 30 feet. Watch carefully what that fly does and where it goes regardless of whether you have mended or not. While you are doing this easy learning exercise do everything you can think of with the rod and line after the fly has landed. Mend upstream - mend downstream, tritch the rod tip, follow the drift with the tip and on other casts allow the tip to remain pointed to where the fly landed. Study the differences in fly speed when you follow the drift / swing or not. This is how I learned what a submerged fly was doing and removed the guess work. A fly does basically the same thing whether it is fished on a sinking leader like I use or on plain monofilament, things are slightly different with weighted flies but not by much.

I really believe this is worth the time and effort because until you can make the connection between rod & line manipulations and their effect on a fly you are guessing. Once you have made the visual connection to your mind & memory you are in a better place when you fish subsurface. By the way, I've never read what I just suggested anywhere unless I wrote it. if you ever want to get into streamer fishing I would suggest looking up anything Doug Swisher ever wrote or filmed in relation to it. He is one guy who when I read or watched what he was suggesting I had to fully agree. He knows his P's & Q's

 

[busbus]

Silver,

That was an incredibly detailed explanation! I has to read it three times to make it start to sink in. I need to read it several more times to really "get it," but what you wrote and the drawings really made a lot of sense. THANKS!!

And the Borger article is absolutely great. I printed it out so I can bring it with me the next time I get a chance to be on a stream--which will be the next Friday. Woo-hoo!!


-------------

Ard,

You make everything sound effortless. I wish I were 1/1,000,000th as good a fly fisher as you (or Silver Creek or Big Jim or just about everybody on this forum).

I am printing your response out, too, and I will be doing everything you say while I am on the stream in a couple days. I really need to do what you say because I have gotten into a bad, bad, bad habit of twitching the tip of my rod to make the fly move. I think it is because I have been doing nothing but stillwater fishing all this year and I got really lazy.



At the same time, I still ask myself, "Why do you go fishing?" and the answer is, still, because I love being outside. I have found that I love the therapy of casting a fly line--no matter how bad a cast is, it just soothes my soul. I find myself enjoying the sights and the sounds and the smells around me, especially on those rare occasions I am able to get on a stream by myself. It reduces my stress level a ton. I can literally "waste" a lot of time watching a fish or two or a woodpecker high in a tree or even an insect just doing what insects do.

I am still amazed that the act of catching a fish is pretty far down the list. It may even be further down today than it was when I first started down this slippery slope. I want to learn how to be a better fly fisher but I am glad I am not necessarily obsessed about it.

Thanks for all the help so many of you have given me over the past couple years.


ray

 

[silver creek]

Hi Ray,

That wrist roll I mentioned is to the right or left depending on the current direction. The 'roll' results in the energy being sent down the rod shaft to the tip and it is the tip that then sends energy down the fly line creating the loop / belly in the line in the direction opposing the current.

By the way, I've never read what I just suggested anywhere unless I wrote it. if you ever want to get into streamer fishing I would suggest looking up anything Doug Swisher ever wrote or filmed in relation to it. He is one guy who when I read or watched what he was suggesting I had to fully agree. He knows his P's & Q's

Ard,

Doug Swisher wrote about the mirror image mend in his book. The wrist flip that he mentions is what I do. You make a letter "C" to the left or a reverse letter "C" to the right.

Fly Fishing Strategy - Doug Swisher - Google Books

 

[Ard]

Hi Silver,

I was talking about the use of a big white fly and studying its reaction to your rod control and line manipulations not the wrist thing, perhaps I should have made that clear. It is possible that someone has described my exercise in a book as well but I'm not aware of it. There are a lot of people who have fly fished and then wrote about it for others so thinking that I have some novel approach to learning what a fly you can't see is doing may be silly.

 

[turbineblade]

Ard,

Doug Swisher wrote about the mirror image mend in his book. The wrist flip that he mentions is what I do. You make a letter "C" to the left or a reverse letter "C" to the right.

Fly Fishing Strategy - Doug Swisher - Google Books

I was out casting before the rain hit yesterday with several rods (tfo finesse, pro II, 5-weight, 8-weight, etc.) and by reading this Swisher article I immediately noticed that he advocates really working on shooting line into your backcast as a measure of skill. He's totally right - I do not shoot line into my backcast as well as my forward cast and need to work on it!

There's always something.

And in the interest of telling the truth, on any given rod when I'm out past the 75-80' mark....my chances of putting a wind knot in the end of my leader increase to about 40%. A more efficient backcast may help with that. Actually, it seems that at longer distance what generally happens is I get a *small amount of slack in the backcast (and/or slight curve) which probably puts the rod into a "buckle" on the next forward cast. It's slight, but it's there.

 

[labradorguy]

I realize that many can practice in the yard and it's better than no casting but water will work out all the flaws. The turnover can be worked on by lawn casting but the mend thing will need water.

As usual, Ard and Silver's replies are golden.

One thing that I could add... A lawn is a great place to practice casting left and right handed. It's hard to beat being able to cast with the upstream arm no matter which way the current is crossing in front of you. In a way, it's like an "automatic" mend.

If you can learn to do that, and then figure out how to throw a curve cast finished with an reach/aerial mend right before touchdown, you're going to be ahead of 99.98% of the rest of the fly fishing world.

My grandpa always told me, "If you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly...."

 

[turbineblade]

As usual, Ard and Silver's replies are golden.

One thing that I could add... A lawn is a great place to practice casting left and right handed. It's hard to beat being able to cast with the upstream arm no matter which way the current is crossing in front of you. In a way, it's like an "automatic" mend.

If you can learn to do that, and then figure out how to throw a curve cast finished with an reach/aerial mend right before touchdown, you're going to be ahead of 99.98% of the rest of the fly fishing world.

My grandpa always told me, "If you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly...."

I'd rather be a zoo grizzly -- steady source of food and medical care, removed from my only natural predators (humans and other bears), plenty of time to lay around doing absolutely nothing, that would be the life!

Hey, you're an engineer...I studied foraging behavior .

 

[labradorguy]

I'd rather be a zoo grizzly -- steady source of food and medical care, removed from my only natural predators (humans and other bears), plenty of time to lay around doing absolutely nothing, that would be the life!

Hey, you're an engineer...I studied foraging behavior .

Not this Griz.... I'd never give up my freedom and independence just so I could live a couch potato existence and let the government... I mean the Zoo... take care of me.

Free food, free housing, Obearo-care.... They can keep it. A grizzly has to hunt and make his own way in the world or he's no longer a grizzly.

There are a lot of animals that really enjoy that easy life though, they're called cattle.

 

[turbineblade]

Not this Griz.... I'd never give up my freedom and independence just so I could live a couch potato existence and let the government... I mean the Zoo... take care of me.

Free food, free housing, Obearo-care.... They can keep it. A grizzly has to hunt and make his own way in the world or he's no longer a grizzly.

There are a lot of animals that really enjoy that easy life though, they're called cattle.

Ah, the myth of the noble savage. It's an idea that crops up in environmental policy once in a while. In a nutshell, it's the myth that "wild" and "native" peoples live a more sustainable existence than others (usually people living in developed, urban areas are used in comparison). The truth, ironically, is exactly the opposite --

So, your wild grizzly would most likely be emaciated, full of intestinal parasites, blind in one eye from competing for access to mates, and far more likely to scavenge scraps from dumpsters proximate to your urban "zoo" bears . In either case, you would not work for much of the year either in most of your natural range -- making bears (and most "cool" predators, like great cats) lazy and shiftless.

I do get your political metaphor though -- very clever.

For political purposes, I'd choose leafcutter ants or something -- but that doesn't sound as cool as a large predator.