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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
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    Default Troubleshooting the cast...

    I have a little time off the next few weeks and intend to work on some yard casting. Hope you guys will entertain some random casting questions. I want to learn to haul but thought I should tighten up my distance casting just a bit first. Ard sent me a book "Troubleshooting the Cast" by Ed Jaworski. It is a good book and the answer may very well be contained but I have a rod/line question first. I am using my only 5WT 9-0, A St Croix Reign which is just a touch off their bottom end. Rio Gold line and it casts with precision on my little streams but we are dealing with 25 ft casts. Now I am in the yard and trying to push it past 35ft with little success. The line is piling up at the end of cast and the rod tip reverberates at least two times before the line and leader has time to roll out. Just kills the end of the cast I am assuming this is all me and not the equipment at all. I had my kid cast the rod so I could watch(she has roughly 2 minutes experience distance casting and has a slower stroke). Pretty much the same result. What makes a rod tip shake is my question? I am going to try to spool up my 6WT before dark and check back here later.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Troubleshooting the cast...

    I would read that book, what you describe is definitely in there. It all sounds like a timing vs. power and proper stop to me............

    Anywhere can be the land of great expectations, broken dreams, or paradise found, it's all up to you.

    Life On The Line - Alaska Fishing with Ard
    Ard's Forum blog, Alaska Outdoors

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  4. #3
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Troubleshooting the cast...

    I have been reading the book. Line piling up at end of cast is the closest symptom and improper stop is suggested as a likely issue. I spooled up the 6WT Imperial which is faster and has a sinktip line on it. With my attempt at the same casting technique, it's definitely a tighter loop with about 10 more feet of distance (45 now) and a better layout with a single bobble at the rod tip. Still sounds like I am running out of rod load a bit early. I think I will limit it to these two rods so I don't complicate the learning process.

    BTW these distances I am mentioning are flyline, not adding leader and rod length.

  5. #4

    Default Re: Troubleshooting the cast...

    I was having the same problem some time back.Shorter casts were fine but when I tried to reach out further it would colapse on the foreward cast.Tip would loosely vibrate,felt like the rod was coming apart.Turned out I wasnt letting the back cast roll out completely,a timing thing,I guess.I find it is easier to work with less line in the air and then shooting line on the forward cast.Dont know if this is the right way to correct the problem,but it works for me.I can now get 60 to 70 ft casts with my 3 & 4 wts.

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  7. #5

    Default Re: Troubleshooting the cast...

    Quote Originally Posted by ia_trouter View Post
    What makes a rod tip shake is my question?
    Chances are you are either applying to much power and shocking the rod or you do not have constant tension with the line , either will result in tip bounce and secondary waves going down the line. A hint is to cast 35' requires very little power , if in question try to throttle back to zero and slowly add power/speed.

    does this make any sense ?

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  9. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    Default Re: Troubleshooting the cast...

    Bearing in mind I'm not an instructor or a casting expert:

    I'm asked to watch a lot of my buddies cast when we go fishing, as I can usually take a look and at least spot the more obvious problems, and I've usually dealt with it myself more than once.

    Now, I haven't seen you cast, but from your description, it seems obvious that you are losing energy translation down the line on your presentation cast, which is a fancy way of saying you're line is not traveling fast enough to roll out properly.

    You cite several possible issues:

    Line: Rio Gold is a good line. But as I've recently discovered, the most important party of your set up if you want to cast for distances longer than the head of the line is matching the line to the rod. RGold has a long head design; ideal for short accurate casts, mending, etc. It just might be that the line design isn't matched up to your particular rod design. This doesn't mean you can't figure out a way to get around that, in fact, I bet you can, but it might take some experimentation.

    Rod oscillation: Can't really help you with that. I'm not familiar with the rod. Most rods exhibit some oscillation, but without seeing what's going on, I can't tell you if what you're experiencing is the cause. I can tell you that I've had more than one rod in my quiver that oscillated quite a lot more than say my St. Croix Imperial.

    My solution was to point the rod tip at a point about a foot below my original aiming point immediately after the stop. So if I was lawn casting, my OP was about 4 feet up the fence, my drop point was about a foot or so below that. I don't do this with any kind of authority; I really just allow my arm to relax and let the weight of the rod ease itself down. This seems to put some tension on the rod tip, absorbing the oscillation. Someone here will be able to give you the scientific physics of rod oscillation (I could've about 25 years ago) if you feel you need that.

    Bottom line, your problem appears to be line speed. And there are a lot of possible reasons for it. The most common are sloppy/soft rod stops forward or back. Look at that first. Also, you're attempting longer casts than whatever is your normal distance. Remember to slow your stroke frequency and to lengthen your stroke length accordingly.

    Something else I see a lot my friends doing when trying to generate more line speed/cast farther, is they start rotating their torsos from their hips more during the casting process. This in and of itself probably isn't a big deal, but they also get their arm into the act. Usually what I see is the elbow rises to about level with their shoulder, sometimes higher. This creates a lateral arc in the stroke, and therefore the rod tip, and lateral motion should be avoided in the fly cast at all costs. When I do this, what I usually see is my leader flying down range slightly to the inside of the rest of the line, as if it crossed over somewhere behind me. the result is usually a pile of leader about fifteen feet short of where I want to be. Lateral oscillation definitely robs your cast of speed.

    If you watch video of long distance casters, they do get their torsos and their arms get into the act, but if you watch carefully most of them don't allow the elbows to get way out to the side and carve lateral arcs. Instead their elbows still describe pretty straight lines back and forth.

    One way to avoid this is to incorporate the thumb flick. I discovered the thumb flick about two years ago when I hurt my left hand and was having problems handling the line, especially during double hauls. I still needed to generate line speed, and with the help of a friend found this to be helpful. This 'cheat' is along the lines of the 'flicking paint at the fence,' idea, just more aggressive. Assuming your casting with your thumb along the top of the cork, just prior to coming to a firm stop, flick your thumb forward at the target. Your wrist should snap forward slightly, which is added acceleration, and line speed of course. Assuming you don't have the lateral oscillation problem, this should go a long way towards fixing your problem.

    Okay, I won't say anymore, as all I've really done here is give you a bunch of cheats, and the professionals reading this are probably groaning and shaking their heads.

    Hope some of it helps though.

    Peace.

    P.S. This is what happens when I've been laid up with the stomach flu for two days, taking half a dozen medications to combat the dozens of symptoms, and giving me a few glorious side effects to deal with as well. Can you say light-headed and dizzy? Not to mention, ridiculously over-garrulous . . .
    "Three-fourths of the Earth's surface is water, and one-fourth is land. It is quite clear that the good Lord intended us to spend triple the amount of time fishing as taking care of the lawn." ~Chuck Clark

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  11. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
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    Default Re: Troubleshooting the cast...

    Appreciate the advice so far guys. Just spent an hour on the phone with Eastfly. The support on this forum is incredible.

    Thanks Rangerrich, line speed and/or proper stop is the likely culprit. The 5WT rod I am complaining about is my favorite on the creek. It surely has more potential for longer casts with practice. At least I have a clue. The tip shake has to be solved for a proper cast. Wish I had a practice floating line for the 6WT. That would be a more meaningful comparison. The 6WT Imperial seems like a far superior rod with a sinktip line on it. Time and practice will tell.

  12. #8
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    Default Re: Troubleshooting the cast...

    Quote Originally Posted by ia_trouter View Post
    I have a little time off the next few weeks and intend to work on some yard casting. Hope you guys will entertain some random casting questions. I want to learn to haul but thought I should tighten up my distance casting just a bit first. Ard sent me a book "Troubleshooting the Cast" by Ed Jaworski. It is a good book and the answer may very well be contained but I have a rod/line question first. I am using my only 5WT 9-0, A St Croix Reign which is just a touch off their bottom end. Rio Gold line and it casts with precision on my little streams but we are dealing with 25 ft casts. Now I am in the yard and trying to push it past 35ft with little success. The line is piling up at the end of cast and the rod tip reverberates at least two times before the line and leader has time to roll out. Just kills the end of the cast I am assuming this is all me and not the equipment at all. I had my kid cast the rod so I could watch(she has roughly 2 minutes experience distance casting and has a slower stroke). Pretty much the same result. What makes a rod tip shake is my question? I am going to try to spool up my 6WT before dark and check back here later.
    One problem many people have which I haven't seen touch upon often is that the angler is GRIPPING the rod far to tightly.

    Take an imaginary tennis ball and throw it. How tightly are you holding it? Almost "cradeling' it,right? turn your hand over and it almost falls out.

    Now, grip it tightly and try to throw it. You tighten up your wrist and can't make that little mini snap at the top of the cast. Now your rod is held so tightly that it won't dampen.

    Remember when you first learned to drive and came to a stop sign? You almost put your father's head through the windshield until you learned to let up a tad on the brake pedal just as the car came to a stop.

    The same is true with the rod. When you stop your forearm on the back cast, the rod is fully loaded. Then the rod straightens from the lowest point to the tip.

    Once the tip aligns with the rod blank the line starts to unroll. However, t here is still kinetic energy stored on the mass of the rod blank and guides.

    This makes the rod go past being straight to a bend in the opposite direction. It then stops and goes back and forth until the energy is dissipated.

    While this is happening, you are shooting line behind you and it ends up with the running line in an "s". This S is SLACK and you will have to pull all of that slack out of the line with your forward stroke until is it removed. Then and only then will the head of the line and fly start forward.

    However, if you are holding the rod more gently, that stored vibration will dampen throughout the entire length of the rod and the entire rod will stabilize allowing the running line to run straight and true.

    The reason for the grip being too tight is that the angler may be holding the rod in a grip with the thumb directly on top of the rod and the entire rod is not aligned with the forearm, but instead like a dog leg.

    Why do authors say to put the thumb on top? They neglect to notice that they are looking not straight down on the rod but at about 15 degrees offset.

    Holding it somewhat like a golf grip with the "V" on top and the thumb and knuckle of the forefinger equidistant from that V. Make sure that the rod is still parallel to the forearm and not doglegged.

    If you invison a fencing grip on a foil, then rotate it so that the "v" is up you have it.

    Okay, go fishing tomorrow.

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  14. #9

    Default Re: Troubleshooting the cast...

    Quote Originally Posted by ia_trouter View Post
    I have been reading the book. Line piling up at end of cast is the closest symptom and improper stop is suggested as a likely issue. I spooled up the 6WT Imperial which is faster and has a sinktip line on it. With my attempt at the same casting technique, it's definitely a tighter loop with about 10 more feet of distance (45 now) and a better layout with a single bobble at the rod tip. Still sounds like I am running out of rod load a bit early. I think I will limit it to these two rods so I don't complicate the learning process.

    BTW these distances I am mentioning are flyline, not adding leader and rod length.
    A sink tip line has a thinner heavier tip section. Because it is thinner with more mass density, that change alone will lengthen your cast because of less aerodynamic drag.

    If you want to cast further, put that Rio gold on your 6 wt rod. The 5 wt Rio Gold line with a 6 wt rod will allow you cast further without over flexing the rod.

    The keys to longer casts are:

    1. You cannot make a good cast without a HARD stop. A hard stop prevents the rod from unloading before the stop. Work on the stops and the cast will be efficient at every distance.

    2. Tight loop to lower aerodynamic drag.

    3. A correct double haul.

    4. Slick fly line - so clean the line to reduce frictional drag.

    5. Shoot line both into the BACKCAST just before the final forward cast, then a second line shoot into the final forward cast. Most casters shoot line only into the forward cast and don't take advantage of the backcast to extend line. do both and you will cast farther.

    6. Reduce the angle of the line to the first guide as it shoots. If the line has to go around the first guide to line up with the fly rod, you lose distance to bot friction and directional change of the line shoot. There will be greater line slap and line waves that needs to be gathered the guide. So if you can direct your line hauls to match up with the fly rod and guides, your cast will go father.

    7. Direct the cast higher so the cast has time to completely unroll before landing.

    For a detailed study of elite casters read this:

    http://www.fedflyfishers.org/Portals...ry%20Moran.pdf
    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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  16. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    Parker, COLORADO
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    Default Re: Troubleshooting the cast...

    A couple things. One, have your daughter video you casting, and post it. Will be easier to diagnose for you.

    Second, based on what you are saying, I have a couple guesses. The main thing is the path at which you are moving the rod. I have a good friend that when using weighted lines or when using indicators within 25 he casts well, when he tries for more or smaller dries, the rod "shakes" and the line piles. In his case, and in many others case for distance, it is the path at which you are taking the rod back and then forward along with the position you are applying power.

    The most common thing heard is 10 and 2. And when people here 10 and 2 they think of a clock face and they tend to arc the fly rod along that circle. This is wrong. If you are going back and then on the forward you are arcing the rod, then you will lose power and the line will absolutely pile up. instead, think of 10 and 2 as a straight line. Your hand should remain straight on that line with the power stop and (punching a wall, a defined stop) then coming forward with a defined stop. I actually prefer the backcast to shoot up toward tree top (closer to a 1 position).

    Also, many people dont let the rod truly load before transferring to the forward cast. You can watch your backcast to check it, but I prefer to have people cast more side arm. Stand with the rod in a sidearm position - the rod should be parallel with the ground about waist high. Perform your backcast and watch the line. As the line starts to make a "J" on the backcast, power forward to the defined stop. Practice going back, then forward doing that power stoke and only pushing forward and then back at the moments the line is almost out of the letter J. A key to this is while you are false casting is you have to keep the line parallel to the ground too. If you go to high, or the line drops to low you arent applying power properly.

    That last thing is really good to learn to haul and use line speed as well. Once you are ready for that, let me know and I will be happy to explain.

    casting is about line speed, and the only way to have proper line speed is to have the right timing and path for those stops.

    good luck

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