Improved Synch knot or not

[texastroutbum]

Improved Clinch knot or not

I believe many of us are using the improved clinch knot to tie their flies. First of all, I am wondering how many of us are using different knot to tie flies such as Davy knot. Please let me know pros and cons of other knots.

Another question is when one uses the improved clinch knot, how many times do you wrap around the main line? Most of the instructional videos say that we should wrap around 5 times. But I find that four times is enough and when I did more than 5, it results in an abrasion of tippet.

 

[caseywise]

when i use a cinch knot,which i use most of the time, i go 6-8 wraps and always add a dad of spit,(helps lube the knot for a stronger finish). a nice close trim of the tag and you're good to go!


casey

 

[dean_mt]

Since randomly running across an article on knots earlier this year I've been trying to make myself tie some other knots that might be stronger but not that much harder to tie. Now, I've been using the Improved Clinch for as long as I've fished, and have landed plenty of big heavy fish. And of course broken off lots of who-knows-how-big fish (probably really big, right?!).

I know lots of guides that use the Improved Clinch all the time, so it is obviously a suitable knot. But that one article I read, and I cannot recall where it was, claimed that the IC knot could go as low as 65% strength retention. That is bad. But I've also read 80%+, so I don't know which to believe. But I assume that to get below 70% strength you'd have to be tying bad knots.

I have been tying the Trilene knot because it is rated between 80-90% and is almost the same knot except you pass through the hook eye twice. Any knot that passes through the eye twice will be stronger. The Orvis knot is another that is not much harder to tie and supposedly very strong. One of the strongest knots of all is the Palomar, which is actually quite simple to tie on larger hooks.

It's really a matter of comfort level I think. If you can tie a good knot, and it works, tie it with confidence. But it certainly will not hurt you to know how to tie a few options of the strongest knots.

 

[caseywise]

I know lots of guides that use the Improved Clinch all the time, so it is obviously a suitable knot. But that one article I read, and I cannot recall where it was, claimed that the IC knot could go as low as 65% strength retention. That is bad. But I've also read 80%+, so I don't know which to believe. But I assume that to get below 70% strength you'd have to be tying bad knots.

casey
the standard cinch is actually stronger than the improved, if tied properly.

 

[Guest1]

I very rarely use any knot other than a Trilene knot to tie the fly on. It's a 100% strength knot that I trust.

 

[texastroutbum]

I just learned Davy knot and tried to pull tippet and finds that this knot may be stronger than improved synch knot.

Dan, Trilene knot seems to be good for a big hook. Another knot to learn.

 

[gatortransplant]

I like the Trilene knot, it is exceptionally strong. It is also nice that even if you leave a little extra tag than usual, the tag threads alongside the fly/lure rather than back up the line/hanging outward. The palomar knot is very easy and I use it some times (its especially good when it gets cold and your hands don't want to tie an improved clinch or trilene) but while it rates well with constant pressure some sources rate it very low (50s/60s) on quick stress situations, so I would be nervous using it for tarpon and the like. Also, like Casey said, absolutely lubricate the knot so that it cinches down well and without undue stress on the line. You can also go the extra mile and hit it with zap-a-gap or UV-whatever-its-called, but this could start getting a little tedious...

 

[dean_mt]

the standard cinch is actually stronger than the improved, if tied properly.

Really? What the heck is the "improvement" then? I haven't found any standard rating on knots...anyone?

Dan, Trilene knot seems to be good for a big hook. Another knot to learn.

5X easily passes through a size 14 hook eye twice, 4X will too. Give it a try.

---------- Post added at 11:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 PM ----------

I very rarely use any knot other than a Trilene knot to tie the fly on. It's a 100% strength knot that I trust.

Dan, I know it's a strong knot, I've read it's a high 90% knot, but I've also seen it rated in the 80's and below the Improved Clinch. Where do you find the truth about these knot ratings? Which do you believe? I like the Trilene too, and if it's good enough for that record pike you caught, it's certainly good enough for me!

 

[gatortransplant]

Haha, Dean, I'm with you. We need oversight on these knot strength testers! Who do we trust? What are the actual ratings? In all honesty, I want split-second stress results AND constant stress results, done by an outside party who doesn't have a particular knot they are trying to sell. I think you've hit the actual nail on the head though, Dan did catch that record pike along with a bunch of other records... I'll second his word as more than good enough for me

 

[Guest1]

Dan, I know it's a strong knot, I've read it's a high 90% knot, but I've also seen it rated in the 80's and below the Improved Clinch.

The Fishing Hall of Fame no longer requires you send the fly attached to the leader, but the IGFA still does. Back in the days they ( Fishing Hall of Fame ) did, I broke quite a few records with Ande mono that breaks at the rated pound test. They send along with your record, a sheet showing what the leader broke at. I make my leaders with a perfection loop at the end. It is not a 100% knot but it is in the big line and will not break before the test tippet. I connect the sections of the leader and test tippet with blood knots. I then tie on the fly with a Trilene knot. When they have tested my leaders they break right where thay are supposed to. Also when I snag the bottom it is extremely rare that I bust a fly off any way but between the Trilene knot and the blood knot. I'd say that kinda proves the strength of both the Trilene and the blood knot. I have a spool of 20 that I sent a bunch in to be tested for a record with conventional tackle. So no knots involved. It breaks right dead on 20. I used the same spool to make leaders for 2 fly rod records and both broke dead on 20, knots and all. On occasion I do use a couple of other knots. If I put a bite tippet on, I use a bimini twist and albright knot the double end to the bite tippet. I did the 8 lb. tippet Walleye record this way with a 30lb. bite tippet because I was getting clipped of by Pike so much and got tired of loosing flies. After testing that leader I also have faith in the Bimini and Albright knots.

 

[milt spawn]

You could check the Knot Wars on North American Fisherman, they test them all on a machine. It's knot a fly site, but they do test mono, flouro, braid, whatever. My go to knot is the improved figure 8, strong, easy, joins unequal tippets, and does not waste material. I have also been using the palomar, non-slip loop, San Diego jam, and the Korean boat knot. milt. The figure 8 is aka the Orvis.

 

[Rip Tide]

Like Casey, I personally find the clinch to be a stronger knot than the improved clinch.
When you make an "improvement" to a knot there's more of a chance that it will not draw tight. And knots that aren't tight will slip. And knots that slip will break.
For me this is especially true with the double "improved" trilene knot.

I let the tippet material tell me how many turns to take for my clinch knots.
As you're wrapping you'll get to a point where you will begin to feel resistance in the material and that's where you should stop or even back off 1/2 a turn.
For heavy mono this might be 3+1/2 turns and with light X tippet it may be 7 turns. It all depends on the diameter and flexibility of the material.

Knot strength has a lot to do with how well each individual consistently tie their knots. If you find that a certin knot works well for you then you should stick with it regardless of what other people use.

 

[wjc]

For bonefish flies and other small flies I want a rigid connection with, I start out with a palomar. Any reties are with the trilene. I don't like the "improved" clinch because I think it is too hard to cinch up without burning.

For large diameter bite tippets I use a cinched duncan loop for rigid connections or a modified "Lefty loop" for a no-slip loop. I am tempted to start trying "old school" tarpon flies again, as it seems nobody uses them any more. They were snelled.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[dean_mt]

Thanks Dan, I'll trust you when say a knot is "100%". And again, if these knots are good enough for a HOF fisherman -- I'll stick with them!

 

[kevthebassman]

I like the Trilene knot, it is exceptionally strong. It is also nice that even if you leave a little extra tag than usual, the tag threads alongside the fly/lure rather than back up the line/hanging outward. The palomar knot is very easy and I use it some times (its especially good when it gets cold and your hands don't want to tie an improved clinch or trilene) but while it rates well with constant pressure some sources rate it very low (50s/60s) on quick stress situations, so I would be nervous using it for tarpon and the like. Also, like Casey said, absolutely lubricate the knot so that it cinches down well and without undue stress on the line. You can also go the extra mile and hit it with zap-a-gap or UV-whatever-its-called, but this could start getting a little tedious...

I've been fishing the Palomar knot for 10 years now, and have never had the line break at the knot. I can't say that for any other knot I use. If it were easier to tie small flies on with a Palomar, I would.

It's the easiest knot I know. Sometime back, someone posted up a knot that was even easier, stupid easy. I think it may have been the Davy knot, if I remember correctly. I checked out a diagram on how to tie it, then went fishing later that weekend, and couldn't for the life of me remember how it was tied.

 

[wjc]

Bassman,

LOL! I did the same thing right after seeing it. It is mind-numbing easy, so much that I didn't have to do any thinking about it, so didn't have a clue how to tie it later, without dragging up the directions again.

With 60 lb fluoro, it broke well below 60 lbs. With leader that thick it also has a lousy profile, like a sail boat keel and does not cinch up tightly to the hook eye. The standing line comes in either high or low on the hook eye, depending on which way you thread it in and there is another big protuberance on the other side of the hook eye.

When I tried it with a Gami 2/0 (which is pretty thick wire) and 0X tippet, the knot just slipped off repeatedly.

Since guys use it, I'm sure it's fine for small fish on small hooks if you are in a big rush. But the stated strengths are all over the board, depending on who's doing the tying and testing, what line they're doing it with and what it's tied around.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[Cool Hand Hodge]

Count me in with the group that ties the standard cinch. I also tie my tippet on with a surgeons knot. I always break off between the cinch and sergons...good proof of quality knots.

 

[bruce m]

I've been using the Blood knot for tying my leader sections and a cinch knot for the fly for as long as I can remember, It was what I was taught and never felt the need to change. KISS.

 

[Cool Hand Hodge]

I like the blood knot, but for me its just such a PITA to tie!

 

[bruce m]

I guess it's just a matter of what you are used to, I am certain I could tie a blood just as fast as you tie a surgeons, not challenging you here, for the fish I catch there really is no need to worry all that much, I am not salmon fishing.