Knot Strength

[omas]

Last night I was researching knots and found some Rio Line videos on how to tie different knots. At the end of each video they tested the strength of the knots and gave a percentage of line strength at which each knot failed. They only tested 1 knot for each type. I was surprised to see how weak some of the knots I commonly use are. I was wondering if there is a site that has tested knots (in more detail) and charted the results?

 

[karstopo]

It would be nice to see a comprehensive list of knots and relative strength. The only knot I've ever had any issues with is the Albright Special and that was pre-fly-fishing. I always attributed it to operator error and not the knot's fault.

Since getting into fly fishing, I've had more issues with hooks bending on fish. Maybe there needs to be a comparative hook strength test.

 

[old timer]

You'll notice in those Rio tests that the clinch knot out performed the improved clinch by quite a bit.

The opposite of what most believe.

 

[omas]

That's the one that caught my eye too.

---------- Post added at 09:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 PM ----------

My test results:
Using #14 fly and 4x mono tippet I tied 3 knots each of; the Orvis knot, the clinch (6wraps), the improved clinch (6 wraps), and the quick penny knot. I then pulled the fly and the standing line until failure. No test gauges were used, just by my feel. I then pulled on a length of standing line (tippet) with no knots until failure.

3rd Place: Both the clinch knots felt like they failed at the same amount of pressure. Frankly it didn't seem very strong. It seem to fail at slightly higher than 50-60% of the line strength.

2nd Place: Orvis Knot only slightly better clinch knots, maybe 70% of line strength.

1st Place: Quick Penny Knot. Clearly much stronger than the other knots. Not 100% of line strength, but maybe 85-90%.

Not a very unscientific test, but interesting.

Note: all failures occurred at or near the knots.

 

[kayo]

Omas, I believe the turtle Knot was 1st place it was 92% strength. One of my favorite knots to tie on flies.

 

[cerec_cat]

Yellowstone Angler has a tippet showdown they did several years go. They also have an interesting read about knot strength using various knots and tippet diameters.

 

[Walter1023]

also remember........tying a supposed superior knot incorrectly has more ramifications tan tying a inferior knot correctly.

I almost always use the Davy knot which I believe is on the lower end of the strength test.......but its quick.....neat......can be tied in low light conditions and it rarely ever fails me.

I can probably change 3 flies in the time most people can change one....and very little bulk especially nice when fishing small flies.

 

[chechem]

Most surprising to me was a report that Rio Fluoroflex "instantly cut through itself" when there was a knot in the tippet.

:shocking:

https://www.yellowstoneangler.com/gear-review/tippet-shootout-seaguar-grandmax-trouthunter-orvis-mirage-riopowerflex-pline-dairiki-varivas-sa-climax-maxima-froghair-stoft-umpqua

 

[karstopo]

There is a lot of good information in that Yellowstone tippet shootout. I wonder if anyone will alter what they do based on the results? I like Seaguar Grand max and the shootout reinforces that it's a good material. Nylon looks good in the tiny diameter tippet sizes with Nylon's superior knot strength.

One little comment in there was about anglers knowing how much pressure they can put on their tippets. That seems pretty key.

 

[Rip Tide]

also remember........tying a supposed superior knot incorrectly has more ramifications tan tying a inferior knot correctly.

This ^

The best knot is the one that you tie the best and have the most confidence in.
Even a "100%" knot is worthless if you don't tie it right or if it's not snug

Knots break for 2 reasons.
When they slip, and when the standing line is kinked

 

[old timer]

There is a lot of good information in that Yellowstone tippet shootout. I wonder if anyone will alter what they do based on the results? I like Seaguar Grand max and the shootout reinforces that it's a good material. Nylon looks good in the tiny diameter tippet sizes with Nylon's superior knot strength.

One little comment in there was about anglers knowing how much pressure they can put on their tippets. That seems pretty key.

I always used Rio mono. That shootout confirmed it's a good choice.

 

[james w 3 3]

Last night I was researching knots and found some Rio Line videos on how to tie different knots. At the end of each video they tested the strength of the knots and gave a percentage of line strength at which each knot failed. They only tested 1 knot for each type. I was surprised to see how weak some of the knots I commonly use are. I was wondering if there is a site that has tested knots (in more detail) and charted the results?

The best I've ever seen is "Paulus Just Fishing". Unfortunately it's almost exclusively weighted to saltwater stuff. He's always been into line testing more than knots, but still . . . His methodology is impeccable, makes everything you read in our "shootouts" look like children writing a 5th grade science report.
If you're willing to sort through the massive amount of information you can learn more than enough. I haven't had an email conversation with him in a few years, but he used to do a lot of that, to my and others benefit.

If you'll indulge me in this simple summary, this is what I use. Line to hook, San Diego Jam knot. Leader to tippet, triple surgeons.

Losing a fish, or even just a fly, to a knot failure is ridiculous. Just my OCD opinion.

 

[karstopo]

I always used Rio mono. That shootout confirmed it's a good choice.

Right, the shootout drove home the point that mono has better knot strength versus Fluorocarbon. I would think that fact would make nylon a better choice when using fine tippets on bigger fish unless the difference in visibility, water absorption, and abrasion resistance comes into play. The good thing about the information in the shootout is there is some test data to sort through so each angler can make a better informed opinion on what to use.

I always thought fluorocarbon would be a bad choice for dry fly or surface fly use, but the tests indicated that the water surface tension will support finer fluorocarbon tippets in spite of the material approaching twice the specific gravity of water.

 

[old timer]

I always rub down the mono with Fullers Earth to remove the shine. I think it helps some, but who knows how much?

 

[omas]

Thanks for the heads up on the tippet shootout. There is a lot of good and interesting information in it.

 

[clsmith131]

I most often fish for freshwater striper, and normally use only these knots:

Uni to Uni knot to build my leaders
Trilene knot to attach a fly to heavy tippet or leader (above 0x).
Palomar to attach fly from 1x - 0x
Loop knot if I want to give my streamer more movement.


These are all carryovers from my experience with spin and conventional tackle. Around here, you rarely find a trout that will really test your knot strength, but out of habit, I still use the same knots for thin line, being especially careful while cinching them down.

 

[silver creek]

How did I miss this thread?

Some things have not been mentioned yet that I think need to be considered.

The first is that most knot tests are done when the mono/fluoro is dry, ie, right after tying then knot. The problem with this is that because we are fishing, the knots are "not" dry. They are wet. Furthermore, nylon absorbs water. When nylon absorbs water, it becomes weaker and the knots become weaker.

Fluorocarbon vs. Nylon | Fly Fish America

"In reality, nylon monofilament will absorb up to about 10% of its weight in water. Water absorption is a mixed blessing. On the upside, nylon monofilament that has absorbed water becomes more limp and supple, and makes knot tying easier. On the downside, water-logged nylon monofilament swells, increasing its diameter, reducing its break strength by about 20% (i.e., 10-pound test becomes 8-pound), and increasing its elongation (stretch) by 25% to 30%."

The second issue is that we are not very good at tying reproducible knots. Tom Rosenbauer has used the $30,000.00 Orvis testing machine to test identical knots tied with identical materials by the various "expert" fly fishers on the Orvis staff. They cannot tie the same strength knot consistently with the same materials.

Tom has stated this on his podcasts. This article reflects that evidence.

Classic Tip: Which Knot Should You Use to Tie on a Fly? - Orvis News

The final and third point that has not been raised is that the "best knot" depends on what brand of material is used. The strongest knot for one manufacturer's mono or fluorocarbon or nylon may not be the best knot if you use another manufacturers product.

So my recommendation is to learn to tie well a good knot for tying leader to tippet and tippet to fly UNLESS you simply cannot tie the knot consistently well. My fear is that if I switch from the knots I have used for 20 years, I've lost 20 years of knowing how to tie the knot in various situations including extremely cold weather.

I personally use the blood knot and the Orvis tippet knot respectively, but you choose what you want. I use the Orvis tippet knot because it wastes very little material so I do not need to add tippet material as often.

 

[el jefe]

To Silver's second issue above I add my own experience. I was having terrible breakage problems at tippet-to-tippet connections using the double surgeon's knot. For whatever reason, I have an awful time tying that knot; I am unable to pull the two standing portions of line and both tag ends so that the knot cinches down all together, and end up pulling on one or more of the four pieces at a different rate, ending up with a small circle where there should be a nice, neat knot. I could not tie the double surgeon's knot consistently. In my ham-handed attempts to get that knot to close right, I ended up cutting the line with the line. So I taught myself the blood knot, one many find more complicated to tie. (Some friends suggested I try the triple surgeon's knot. Right, like that'll help someone who can't tie a double surgeon's knot. Idiots.) I can tie the blood knot quite consistently, and my tippet-to-tippet knot failures have virtually vanished.

 

[fredaevans]

Amazing how many knots there are for fishing: Fishing Knots | How to Tie Every Fishing Knot - Animated, Illustrated and Explained

 

[omas]

Slow night at home. More unscientific knot test results.

5x Rio FloroFlex tied to a #14 Fly:

Quick Penny vs Orvis - clear winner was Orvis knot. Both knots seemed to fail at least more than 85%-90% of line strength. Orvis felt much stronger.

5x Rio Floro to 6x Rio Floro for a tippet connection
Orvis Knot vs Triple Surgeon Knot - Orvis knot clear winner. Surgeon knot seemed to fail a around 60- 70%. Orvis knot around 80-90%.

I still need to test Floro to Mono connection and also a different brand of Floro (maybe trout hunter).