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Thread: Cut back or loop ?

  1. #11

    Default Re: Cut back or loop ?

    Quote Originally Posted by myt1 View Post
    I'm not sure I'm following this.

    Are you talking mainly about saltwater fishing, or the 5X and 6X tippets and leaders of trout fishing?
    Itís a general discussion applicable to all types of fly fishing, with special considerations for certain types.

    Isn't a loop to loop connection between the leader and tipper quite a bit more bulky than a blood knot or a double surgeon's knot?
    Somewhat bulkier.

    I could also imagine it might create some sort of hinge point when casting.
    Easy to imagine, but in practice, if done correctly, it does not create a hinge.

  2. Likes myt1 liked this post
  3. Default Re: Cut back or loop ?

    I use loop to loop for tippets.

    Some purists, particularly dry fly trout fishermen believe they don't get a perfect turnover with loop to loop.

    In his book, Fishing Dry Flies for Trout on Rivers and Streams, Art Lee writes that the loop to loop connection is "worthless".

    I like them, and my favorite was a braided leader looped to the tippet.

    But what do I know compared to Art Lee?

  4. #13
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    Default Re: Cut back or loop ?

    Couple of things , as mentioned hinging should not be a problem.
    Art who ? Nevermind throw the book out....lol.
    Consider this when thinking of bulk. Loop connections are made by tying loops in tippet & leader then.looping together. Say 10 & 20lb test are to be joined. 20lb knot for loop is biggest knot. When cast loop & smaller 10 lb knot are behind 20lb knot. Like being in draft of car.
    Now tying 10 to 20lb test together in a combined knot. Makes a bigger knot than 20 by itself. Therefore making it more wind resistant. And in some small amount harder to cast.
    Bulk to me is diameter not needed. Not the lenght of connections.

    ....... pc

  5. #14

    Default Re: Cut back or loop ?

    I used to be anti-loops in rigging but have grown to change my views. I have now long employed a Bimini in my backing to loop to now reinforced factory loops on the back of fly lines. I even use a loop-to-loop attaching some leaders to fly lines; again a 15-turn reinforcing nail knot over the double portion of the factory weld then looping the Braided Butt, Nylon Furl or Perfection looped mono or Flouro leader to that. The Perfection loop in heavy material is fine but not in lighter diameters where its relative strength loss renders it inappropriate.

    Regarding looping on tippets, even with a Bimini for max strength, I have not gone this route nor the tippet ring path. For trout leaders, hand tied with Blood Knots conventionally or with the built down sections emanating from the terminus of either Braids or Furls, I leave my last leader section several inches longer than necessary to account for several tippet re-tying's using a 6 or 7 turn Blood Knot. Over a several week period of fishing I might have to replace the 4X piece once or twice following multiple 5 or 6X tippet replacements. Less bulk and superior energy transfer and I can tie Bloods in my sleep (sans toothpick or any other aid).

    Similarly, in the salt, my last leader section might be 14 to 18" of #25 Fluoro to which I'll Ligature or Blood Knot my 4' of 15 to 20 pound tippet. I don't tie on new tippet is the salt with the frequency I do in the sweet but if needed I can retie several times resulting in the last leader section length reducing from 18" down to 8" with no deleterious impact on leader taper, actually the shorter length enhances positive turnover.

    Shortcuts or "easy" are not part of my rigging or leader construction vocabulary. Uniformity of energy transfer, strength and reliability and precision of turnover appropriate to type of desired presentation are my objectives. I am not moribund in my personal traditions. I experiment, have learned from others and modified my techniques and designs over the decades and plan on continuing to do so.

  6. #15
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    Default Re: Cut back or loop ?

    Maybe I used easy to describe something. But easy does not mean short cut. I might go through 6 tippets in an outing depending on what junk I'm fishing around. Looping tippet to leader is only sanity to me. I carry pre-tied tippet with bimini's looped together on tippet spools. When I'm on a boat with a box of pre rigged tarpon flies. Fly to shock tippet...... shock tippet to tippet (bimini tied to shock)........ bimini loop to loop in leader. When these get changed. The speed at which it happens can be of utmost importance. Looping is the fastest way I can do it. Besides my heart might blow before I could tie another....lol.
    While some loop knots might be inferior to other knots. Maybe this could be short cutting. Biminis certainly are not.
    Forget the knot mentioned for tippet to shock tippet. This is an important knot in saltwater. Especially with light or class tippets. Whatever knot one ties best is usually their strongest. Without debating that. When a knot is tied in mono there is a weakening of the line. Say your tying 20lb to 50. And you favorite knot losses 20% line strenght. Precentage doesn't matter just example. So 20lb test becomes 16lb at knot. If knot is tied with legs from bimini tied in tippet two strands of tippet are used for knot. Favorite knot dbl the line less percentage. Could be 32lb. Not as important as not weakening tippet. Whatever it is or whatever knot you chose for this. I would strongly recommend using a bimini at both ends of tippet no matter how either end is then connected. Therefore retaining all of your tippet strength.

    ....... pc

  7. #16

    Default Re: Cut back or loop ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pnc View Post
    Maybe I used easy to describe something. But easy does not mean short cut.
    pnc, I was in no way accusing you of taking "shortcuts", I was speaking more generally about rigging craft. Bimini's are great knots and for shock tippet I usually like an Albright...for tarpon doubled with Bimini to bite for max strength.

    There is surely no one "correct" way to rig and I continue to try different methods. I don't think I change tippets for different fly sizes as much as you seem to so knotted tippets serve me best but this is an interesting discussion that we can all learn something from.

  8. #17
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    Default Re: Cut back or loop ?

    Did not mean to sound so. Wanted to point out tying bimini to shock tippet. And not loosing strength in process. I to use Albright , tied with loop from bimini to shock. Crazy as this might sound. I sort of like tying biminis now. Much easier now with tippet than it was with 200lb test while getting tossed around in back of boat.

    ....... pc

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