Cut back or loop ?

[pnc]

Looking at various threads of late on leaders. Knots used.to fly line , tippet.so forth. I find it puzzling, the amount of people that tie tippets to leaders. And therefore cut back leaders changing tippet.
For years I've used loop connections. Line to leader, leader to tippet. No shortening of any line or no waste. This aside from it being the fastest way of changing leader or tippet. Also allowing for sink sections of line added. A few of what I see as advantages.
For those that tie tippet to leader. Cut back tippets till changing then cut back leader. Do you find something advantageous in doing so ? And how often are new leaders needed ?

......... pc

 

[karstopo]

I cut back. Aimost all the fishing I do is inshore salt or on the oxbow lake. I loop the leader butt to fly line, but otherwise blood knot the leader sections.

I can't remember and not sure I ever have changed out a butt due to being chewed up by section changes. The mid sections take the brunt of that. My leader butts start out at 6 or so feet. Eventually, I guess I'm putting in a new mid section to the butt, but I'm only loosing a few inches on the change. Sometimes, I'll blood knot in an identical section of new tippet or mid section to the fly change over shortened old tippet or mid section.

One negative with how I do it is that no two leaders look the same. As sections get chewed up, some end up shorter. I cast almost daily and sometimes multiple times a day with different set ups. I have 5 set ups ready at all times and just walk out a few feet and cast off the dock. I'm trying different flies that I use to get a feel for how they cast. I feel like that I can get a bead on each leader after casting it a few times unless I make it too long with a wind resistant fly.

But I like your idea to do loops all the way down. Are you doing perfection loop to perfection loop? How close do you trim the tag ends on the loop knots? How big of a loop do you put in the loop knot? How many, if any, mid sections do you use?

 

[Rip Tide]

I loop my tippet to my leader and have for decades.
(Why people waste their time with tippet rings, I will never understand )
But I've found that the perfection loop isn't reliable enough for the tippet side so I go with a surgeon’s or the non-slip...just on the tippet side
I still like the perfection in the heavier leader section as they're easy to tie and small.

.. if you can't trim the tag end of a knot right close, then you're expecting it to slip and therefore it's not a good knot
Knots that slip break

 

[fredaevans]

"(Why people waste their time with tippet rings, I will never understand )"

With a regular mono leader a tippet ring (probably) doesn't bring a lot to the party. With a furled leader (regardless of the build material) I highly recommend.

If you want real over-kill a furled done with Kevlar thread will last you two life times.

fae

 

[pnc]

I cut back. Aimost all the fishing I do is inshore salt or on the oxbow lake. I loop the leader butt to fly line, but otherwise blood knot the leader sections.

I can't remember and not sure I ever have changed out a butt due to being chewed up by section changes. The mid sections take the brunt of that. My leader butts start out at 6 or so feet. Eventually, I guess I'm putting in a new mid section to the butt, but I'm only loosing a few inches on the change. Sometimes, I'll blood knot in an identical section of new tippet or mid section to the fly change over shortened old tippet or mid section.

One negative with how I do it is that no two leaders look the same. As sections get chewed up, some end up shorter. I cast almost daily and sometimes multiple times a day with different set ups. I have 5 set ups ready at all times and just walk out a few feet and cast off the dock. I'm trying different flies that I use to get a feel for how they cast. I feel like that I can get a bead on each leader after casting it a few times unless I make it too long with a wind resistant fly.

But I like your idea to do loops all the way down. Are you doing perfection loop to perfection loop? How close do you trim the tag ends on the loop knots? How big of a loop do you put in the loop knot? How many, if any, mid sections do you use?

End of fly lines are whip finished loops. Loop in butt could be dbl. surgeons, perfection, or non slip. Depending on mono used, whichever works better. Loops are small, just big enough to allow joining.
Tippets pre tied with bimini loops carried on old tippet spool.
I use both knotted & tapered leaders. Tapered cut back to 7.5' & looped. Knotted leaders coated dbl surgeons. Number of sections vary depending on lenght & use. Basic 9-10' (with tippet) , butt section 4-5' , two mid sections 1.5' then 2' tippet. Longer leaders are just longer sections. Should mention, with longer leaders intended for spooky fish. Instead of dropping 10lbs with each section. I'll go to a 5 lb drop in sequence. Rather than 40-30-20 might be 40-30-25-20 or 40-30-20-15 then tippet. Depending on rod/line weight &.tippet desired.
A note about knots. All the various knots for mono work. Yes, some better in different mono line. But all work. What is the failing of any knot is usually in who tied the knot. Maybe more so who tightened knot. Mono under 20 lbs can.be tightened by hand/teeth. Some 20 & every thing over 20 lbs. Needs a pair of pliers on tag end to fully tighten. Line being lubed first of course.
Lab tests have been done on this. Try if any doubts..... you will see difference. Especially if 60 or 80lb bite tippets are tied to tarpon flies.

........ pc

 

[fshng2]

PNC Wow thanks for sharing, this makes perfect sense.
I never thought to use a loop connection for my tippet.
I have only been using a loop to attach the leader to the line and blood knots for the remaining sections.
This my friend is truely high up on my top 10 best tips list for flyfishing.

 

[pnc]

PNC Wow thanks for sharing, this makes perfect sense.
I never thought to use a loop connection for my tippet.
I have only been using a loop to attach the leader to the line and blood knots for the remaining sections.
This my friend is truely high up on my top 10 best tips list for flyfishing.

Glad this might help you. After years of doing it. It's just become a given for me. Don't really think about it.

........ pc

 

[knotjoe]

After years of doing it. It's just become a given for me. Don't really think about it.

........ pc

Me too and I've been watching this thread with curiosity to see how others handle it. Loops simplify things on the tippet end and with a dab of glue, a very smooth loop knot which doesn't tangle and never collects moss.

I change tippet often as a result of rock knicks, scale abrasion, and foliage arguments. Fairly proficient with the bloodknot, but the frequency of change would eat-up the main leader and screw with what simple step-down theory exists in my rig.

I can tie most knots with less material use than a bloodknot so I like that part as well with permanent loops. Also faster, especially with cold fingers.

 

[sevenweight]

I use a hybrid approach: loop-to-loop (always a perfection loop) for tippet when I am working with a new(er) leader. I tie my own leaders for salt water and my tippets are 20 lb. ... I have learned the hard way that 20 is the minimum I should trust for large snook and upper-slot reds over large oyster bars.

Eventually the loop at the end of the 30-lb. leader mid-section becomes worn or kinked enough to be a concern so I re-tie the loop once or twice, then perhaps do a blood knot next time or two. When the 30 lb. segment of leader body is about half its original length, I tie in a new segment of 30 that brings it back to its original length, and the process starts over with a new loop....

I do something similar at the fly line end, starting with loop-to-loop. When the manufacturers's loop in the fly line seems to be wearing out I either put in a new loop, or (especially for my heavier lines) do a needle knot. To me, a needle knot connection to the fly line is nirvana ... and with a 50- 60- lb. butt section (5 feet for starters) it lasts a looooog time. In fact, the line itself might be toast or retired to the practice rod by the time I'd need to do a new needle knot.

 

[myt1]

I'm not sure I'm following this.

Are you talking mainly about saltwater fishing, or the 5X and 6X tippets and leaders of trout fishing?

Isn't a loop to loop connection between the leader and tipper quite a bit more bulky than a blood knot or a double surgeon's knot?

I could also imagine it might create some sort of hinge point when casting.

 

[sevenweight]

I'm not sure I'm following this.

Are you talking mainly about saltwater fishing, or the 5X and 6X tippets and leaders of trout fishing?

It’s a general discussion applicable to all types of fly fishing, with special considerations for certain types.

Isn't a loop to loop connection between the leader and tipper quite a bit more bulky than a blood knot or a double surgeon's knot?

Somewhat bulkier.

I could also imagine it might create some sort of hinge point when casting.

Easy to imagine, but in practice, if done correctly, it does not create a hinge.

 

[beachbreak]

I use loop to loop for tippets.

Some purists, particularly dry fly trout fishermen believe they don't get a perfect turnover with loop to loop.

In his book, Fishing Dry Flies for Trout on Rivers and Streams, Art Lee writes that the loop to loop connection is "worthless".

I like them, and my favorite was a braided leader looped to the tippet.

But what do I know compared to Art Lee?

 

[pnc]

Couple of things , as mentioned hinging should not be a problem.
Art who ? Nevermind throw the book out....lol.
Consider this when thinking of bulk. Loop connections are made by tying loops in tippet & leader then.looping together. Say 10 & 20lb test are to be joined. 20lb knot for loop is biggest knot. When cast loop & smaller 10 lb knot are behind 20lb knot. Like being in draft of car.
Now tying 10 to 20lb test together in a combined knot. Makes a bigger knot than 20 by itself. Therefore making it more wind resistant. And in some small amount harder to cast.
Bulk to me is diameter not needed. Not the lenght of connections.

....... pc

 

[sweetandsalt]

I used to be anti-loops in rigging but have grown to change my views. I have now long employed a Bimini in my backing to loop to now reinforced factory loops on the back of fly lines. I even use a loop-to-loop attaching some leaders to fly lines; again a 15-turn reinforcing nail knot over the double portion of the factory weld then looping the Braided Butt, Nylon Furl or Perfection looped mono or Flouro leader to that. The Perfection loop in heavy material is fine but not in lighter diameters where its relative strength loss renders it inappropriate.

Regarding looping on tippets, even with a Bimini for max strength, I have not gone this route nor the tippet ring path. For trout leaders, hand tied with Blood Knots conventionally or with the built down sections emanating from the terminus of either Braids or Furls, I leave my last leader section several inches longer than necessary to account for several tippet re-tying's using a 6 or 7 turn Blood Knot. Over a several week period of fishing I might have to replace the 4X piece once or twice following multiple 5 or 6X tippet replacements. Less bulk and superior energy transfer and I can tie Bloods in my sleep (sans toothpick or any other aid).

Similarly, in the salt, my last leader section might be 14 to 18" of #25 Fluoro to which I'll Ligature or Blood Knot my 4' of 15 to 20 pound tippet. I don't tie on new tippet is the salt with the frequency I do in the sweet but if needed I can retie several times resulting in the last leader section length reducing from 18" down to 8" with no deleterious impact on leader taper, actually the shorter length enhances positive turnover.

Shortcuts or "easy" are not part of my rigging or leader construction vocabulary. Uniformity of energy transfer, strength and reliability and precision of turnover appropriate to type of desired presentation are my objectives. I am not moribund in my personal traditions. I experiment, have learned from others and modified my techniques and designs over the decades and plan on continuing to do so.

 

[pnc]

Maybe I used easy to describe something. But easy does not mean short cut. I might go through 6 tippets in an outing depending on what junk I'm fishing around. Looping tippet to leader is only sanity to me. I carry pre-tied tippet with bimini's looped together on tippet spools. When I'm on a boat with a box of pre rigged tarpon flies. Fly to shock tippet...... shock tippet to tippet (bimini tied to shock)........ bimini loop to loop in leader. When these get changed. The speed at which it happens can be of utmost importance. Looping is the fastest way I can do it. Besides my heart might blow before I could tie another....lol.
While some loop knots might be inferior to other knots. Maybe this could be short cutting. Biminis certainly are not.
Forget the knot mentioned for tippet to shock tippet. This is an important knot in saltwater. Especially with light or class tippets. Whatever knot one ties best is usually their strongest. Without debating that. When a knot is tied in mono there is a weakening of the line. Say your tying 20lb to 50. And you favorite knot losses 20% line strenght. Precentage doesn't matter just example. So 20lb test becomes 16lb at knot. If knot is tied with legs from bimini tied in tippet two strands of tippet are used for knot. Favorite knot dbl the line less percentage. Could be 32lb. Not as important as not weakening tippet. Whatever it is or whatever knot you chose for this. I would strongly recommend using a bimini at both ends of tippet no matter how either end is then connected. Therefore retaining all of your tippet strength.

....... pc

 

[sweetandsalt]

Maybe I used easy to describe something. But easy does not mean short cut.

pnc, I was in no way accusing you of taking "shortcuts", I was speaking more generally about rigging craft. Bimini's are great knots and for shock tippet I usually like an Albright...for tarpon doubled with Bimini to bite for max strength.

There is surely no one "correct" way to rig and I continue to try different methods. I don't think I change tippets for different fly sizes as much as you seem to so knotted tippets serve me best but this is an interesting discussion that we can all learn something from.

 

[pnc]

Did not mean to sound so. Wanted to point out tying bimini to shock tippet. And not loosing strength in process. I to use Albright , tied with loop from bimini to shock. Crazy as this might sound. I sort of like tying biminis now. Much easier now with tippet than it was with 200lb test while getting tossed around in back of boat.

....... pc