How to attach nylon furled leader to line with no loop

sparsegraystubble

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During the last season I fished nylon furled leaders for trout and will be using them on all floating lines next year. But I have some older lines without loops and some lines where the loop has had to be replaced.

I have tried the braided loops and they work, but are bulky going through the guides. I would love to have a connection as smooth as a good nail knot or needle knot, but all the alternatives I have tried tend to hang up in the guides.

Has anybody come up with an innovative way to do this connection? I haven't tried nail knotting the butt of a furled leader to the end of a line. I'm concerned that it will end up being as bulky as a loop and start unfurling when I cut the loop off the leader.

Thanks for any ideas or thoughts.

Don
 

flav

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If you don't want to weld a new loop or make a new loop by using a nail knot you could just nail knot on a foot or less of butt material (30 lb mono) and put a perfection loop at the end of it and do a loop to loop.
 

sparsegraystubble

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I've tried both methods but they just end up with more locations to potentially hang up. I might try nail knotting a piece of 30 pound to the line and then tying a nail knot onto the butt of the leader. I fear that will be just as bulky.

Maybe I just have to go back to regular nylon leaders so I can use a simple needle knot or nail knot.

Any loop to loop solution, while convenient to change,just seems too big to me except for lighter tippet applications. When I used to use braided leaders, I would cut off the loop and install the butt of the leader directly on the end of the fly line for a very smooth transition. that doesn't work with the solid nature of furled leaders.

But thanks for the reply.

Don
 

silver creek

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I have tried the braided loops and they work, but are bulky going through the guides. I would love to have a connection as smooth as a good nail knot or needle knot, but all the alternatives I have tried tend to hang up in the guides.

Has anybody come up with an innovative way to do this connection?

Thanks for any ideas or thoughts.

Don
It is true that a loop to loop is bulkier that a nail knot. However, that extra bulk is mainly a problem when fishing a long leader relative to the rod length, which them forces the angler to bring the leader to fly line connection into the guides when landing a fish. The tip top guide can catch the connection and hamper landing the fish or even break very fine leaders when the loop catches,

I have a partial solution that I learned from Lefty Kreh. TURN THE ROD OVER. Lefty Kreh's upside down rod maneuver is the cure for those hang ups when bringing the knot into and out of the guides when fighting fish. Flip the rod over (reel side up) and the knot slides over the end of the rod tip and not over the ring of the tip top guide. Then the connection moves along the spine of the rod rather than from guide to guide. "if you see a knot approaching the guides, turn the rod upside down."

See how the knots will slide over the rod tip with the guides pointed up.

 

sparsegraystubble

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It never would have occurred to me that turning the rod over would make a difference. I will certainly give that a try. And your description of why it is a problem is quite accurate because I tend to use leaders with long tippets for dries and often end up with that juncture going in and out of the tiptop when landing a good fish.

thanks,

Don
 

sweetandsalt

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Sparse, I'm going to take a crack at this complex question.

Only in recent years have I begun to use loop-to-loop leader connections in part because of this hang up in the guides potentiality when employing long leaders, which I always do.

For background, I have fished Orvis Braided Butt leaders since 1984 and Beartooth Braids before that. Sure I also build blood knotted variously tapered leaders for some freshwater and all saltwater applications out of both Nylon and Fluorocarbon (salt only) and eschew knotless, extruded commercial leaders as their turnover and control are below my dry fly standards. But lets stick with Braids and Furls. And lets address the line first. I am going to refer to a 5-weight floating line to exemplify this process.

Firstly and this applies to all leader types regardless of design or material, an uninterrupted transfer of energy is paramount from line to leader, no hinging is acceptable. One confirms this by employing the Parabolic Test.

T13 126 ParabolicTest s.jpg

The original Orvis Braids did not have a loop but came with a plastic pin inserted into the hollow core. One removed it and cutting the tip of the fly line (of course lines did not come with factory loops back then either) at an acute angel, inserted it 1/2 to 3/4" into the Braid. A good droplet of Zap-A-Gap slow setting, high viscosity cyanoacrylate adhesive was applied and tipped to evenly coat and penetrate the line/braid interface and set aside to fully cure, at least an hour. This formed a strong, smooth and unobtrusive line/leader connection. Even after Orvis started splicing loops into the Braids, I would sever them and employ this crafted connection. Then the line makers started including factory welded loops on both ends of their lines. Very clean and convenient but those in the know where aware they were merely a thermo-chemical bonding and about 75% the strength of the line itself. To preclude splitting or other forms of failure, I mechanically reinforce them with a 15 turn nail knot of 20# Fluoro over the doubled portion of the loop at both ends and loop the line to a Bimini in my backing. I started looping on the Braided Butt experimentally and it proved quite acceptable with no problem entering the guides when netting a fish. Similarly, I have begun using some Cutthroat all Nylon Furls (I find thread based Furls to collapse badly especially when wet, which of course, they have to be) which I like particularly on my 6-weight and have no issues with their loop-to-loop interface either. I do not loop on a tippet to either their loop or worse, tippet ring, but nail knot on a 1' section of 0X and blood knot down in .002 or .003 short section increments to my 5' long tippet as I do with the Braid.

B12 009 Reinforced Loop To Backing PS s.jpg

It is important that I note that Orvis mislabels their Braids and has since day-one decades ago. A size Medium, described as matching #'s 6 and 7 lines matches best with #'s 4 - 6. The thinner one intended for #'s 4 and 5 lines hinges unacceptably. This is by far my favorite Orvis product and don't think I have not tried to discuss this with them at the highest levels...with no impact.

If one has a line with no loop or the loop has failed, a new one is easily formed by doubling the tip and tying a multi-turn nail knot over it and closely trim the tag of tip. This is superior to attaching a braided loop connector as these are prone to creating a hinge. Upgrade this formation by lightly coating it with a UV curing, low viscosity sealant like Clear Goo using its high intensity UV flashlight.

The more complex question is affixing a solid Nylon Furl to a fly line and not using loops. I have never done this but you have inspired me to imagine how I would attempt it. I can think of no acceptable way of lashing, tying or bonding the Furl's butt directly to the lines tip. Therefore I propose this experiment: Nail knot to the tip of the fly line a hank of monofilament butt material, for our 5-weight, typically about .021". Then confirm it is the appropriate diameter via the Parabolic Test. Then, keeping this monofilament length as short as practical, nail knot it to the butt of the Nylon Furl. I would apply a thin coat of Clear Goo or cyanoacrylate to both, especially the multi-turn nail knot to the Furl which we do not want to unravel. So, we would have something like a 6" interface of .021 mono connecting the fly line tip to the Furl butt with, hopefully, no hinging nor protruding bulk to hang up in tip-top or small upper snake guides. Sure some leader craft is involved in this proposal but its cold outside and this should be performed indoors under a bright light.
 
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sparsegraystubble

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Howdy S&S,

Some good thoughts and insights that require me to do some trial and error. Thanks so much.

I tend to avoid the superglue applications because that stuff always seems to create stiffness when I use it. Would good ol’ Pliobond be an acceptable alternative for coating the double nail knots in your last solutions?

And a whole other question: Do you really find the small tippet rings that much of an abomination?

Don
 

sweetandsalt

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Howdy S&S,

Some good thoughts and insights that require me to do some trial and error. Thanks so much.

I tend to avoid the superglue applications because that stuff always seems to create stiffness when I use it. Would good ol’ Pliobond be an acceptable alternative for coating the double nail knots in your last solutions?

And a whole other question: Do you really find the small tippet rings that much of an abomination?

Don
Zap-A-Gap is different from other super glues in that its viscosity allows you to place it where you want it without its wicking all over the place. Look up this Clear Goo product on the net. Many employ it for fly tying techniques and I find it an asset in leader craft. I it is ideal for smoothing and sealing knots.

Tippet rings an abomination? While this might be an overstatement of my attitude, I take leader construction and design very seriously and have no place in my rigging for them.

If you chose to experiment with the line/mono/furl attachment, I think we would all be fascinated to see how that works out.
 

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Hi Don,

I am not disagreeing with any of the suggestions given to you, just offering from my own experiences. While I am probably not as skilled as the other guys I have used braided loops on the ends of my fly lines ever since line manufacturers started putting them there. I fished some of the toughest spring creeks in the eastern US.with that type connection between leader and fly line and somehow caught fish. For general purpose fly fishing and the ability to change leaders with ease A loop is a nice touch. If I understand clearly you don't have a loop welded or otherwise on the tip of the fly line...... I'd just put a light duty braided loop on it and go fishing. I've done the nail know thing but prefer a loop.

My secret to not having a braided loop give me problems at the tip top is that I always use a leader equal to my rods length; 9' rod = 9' leader right up to a 15' rod using a 15 or 16 foot leader. The only point at which I feel the connector bonking through the guides is when I'm breaking down the rod & reel and the line is being fully wound in.
 

sweetandsalt

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Here is the issue with Braided Loop connectors, Ard. The loop returns into the section of braded monofilament creating a double walled section. That is OK, it is the remaining hollow braid where the problem arises. It has low mass and high flexibility and is a probable cause of hinging between the solid mass of line tip and mass matching leader butt. Now, this can be ameliorated by inserting the tip of the line all the way to push up against the double wall area of the connector so as to eliminate the majority portion of the hollow braid that is responsible for the loss of energy transfer.

This presumes you concur with my fundamental premise that leader control both during and post cast is a function of uninterrupted energy transfer. Not all do, in fact your fellow Pennsylvanian, George Harvey, intentionally designed a leader using a mono butt of as thin as .017" to induce the leader to collapse into coils of its own volition. His intent, not ill founded, is one wants slack in the leader to promote an un-tensioned drift of ones fly to make it act like an un-tethered natural. While this is true, I am an adherent of the philosophy that the fly fisher should be the one dialing amplitudes of slack into the leader in a controlled, intentional manor by employing ones rod tip in articulate ways to form the size and shape of the current defying curves. This is only achievable with impeccable, even artful control of line and leader both in-air and on-water and any hinging or collapsing of the assembly retards control.
 

Ard

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I see what you're saying Richard and my only reply would have to be that I learned to compensate for any anomalies that occurred in my dry fly fishing including leader connection, wind and varying currents and then Sallied forth from there :) I am if nothing else a creature of habit.
 

sparsegraystubble

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I appreciate all of the ideas and the various points of view. I learned the George Harvey leader in class at Penn State. George was no longer teaching it, but Joe Humphries did a great job.

I could never make that leader work for me as it was supposed too. I found that I was more comfortable adding the mends and such in the air as S&S discusses. But either approach seems to call for a lot of leader rebuilding when changing size or type of fly or when the wind changes.

I’ve always preferred fishing to tying knots so the simplicity of furled leaders appeals to me. But I have to confess that I have embraced tippet knots even though they may not be perfect.

I spent years making my own knotted leaders but these furled guys give me more time fishing so I am tying fewer knots these days.

Don
 

CutThroat Leaders

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Don,

I wish I had a great answer for you.

I do attach my thread Furled Leaders using a knotted connection to the flyline… no loops. Attach one leader at the start of the season, never change it again all season long.

But with a Nylon furled leader, that knot would be too big.

I know of many customers that use the braided looped connectors, but I am not a fan.

When I need to add a loop to a flyline, I use heavy nylon. 30 lb. I attach the nylon to the fly-line using a standard nailknot. I then tie a perfection loop in the nylon. This is where it gets tricky. I tie the loop so it is as close to the nail-knot as possible. Practice makes perfect on this one. If done correctly, the loop can be within ¼” of the nail-knot. You can then build this connection up with a UV resin if need be, to smooth it out a bit. I like the loop to be small as well. I shoot for 3/8” long loop. Hope this makes sense. I will try to post a pic when I get a chance. I am away from the my shop (rods & reels) at the moment.
 

sparsegraystubble

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Thanks for weighing in on this Mike. I know your web site talks about nail knotting, but I was pretty sure it was talking about the thread leaders.

Maybe I need to try one of those, but which of your many thread leaders do you choose to leave on a line all year? I was under the impression that using the thread leaders instead of the nylon that there was a lot more changing from situation to situation.

For instance, I could probably stick with your ultimate dry fly model for my 4 weights for dries, soft hackles, small nymphs and lake shallows. But with 5 or 6 weight I might use weighted nymphs, streamers, etc.

I was going to order some of your nylon leaders for next season, but maybe I should try a thread version as well. I have been using leaders from Feather Craft and Blue Sky.

Don
 

sweetandsalt

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I have compared Blue Sky's Nylon Furl to Mike's and the Cutthroat one is superior, furled with smaller denier monofilament. In my opinion, Mike's all Nylon Furl provides much more positive turn over and control when fishing a dry fly than the thread Furls which are very soft and may not transfer energy as well...your opinion on this Mike? For those of you who fish furls for dries, mass matching your first section of monofilament then tapering down to your tippet as you would do with a hand knotted leader is imperative if you want the maximum performance these leaders offer.

I perform my leader construction at home and, should any re-build become necessary, in camp during a no-hatch afternoon. Stream side, whether fishing a hand knotted, Braided or Furled, I'll rarely do more than blood knot on a new tippet when it gets as short as 3'. Braids and Nylon Furls easily turn over 5' of 5X. If one desires or requires a technical high performance leader when fishing habitats like Silver Creek or the Henry's Fork, there is no way to avoid employing well tied knots to achieve optimal tapers.

Dillon re-tapering his leader in camp on the Missouri
W13 059 Craig Camp  s.jpg

I would sooner fish a modest rod and old line with a great performing leader than the hottest new Sage or Loomis rigged with the most sophisticated of new lines and a crumby pig tail of an uncontrollable leader. The leader shows that selective big boy the fly.
 

canoeman1947

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I use furled leaders all the time, and if my fly line has a loop end or if I have whipped a loop in the fly line, then I use a loop to loop connection. However, about a year ago, I decided to try something else. I have had fly lines where my loop finally broke down, thus losing my leader and tippet and fly. Now if I have a fly line without a loop, I connect it to the furled leader with a Castwell or lap knot. You can Google this knot and find an animated description. It doesn't look like it could possibly work, but I have never had it fail. A couple of friends have tried it and said it came loose. That is because they didn't tighten it down enough. It is not really a knot, but what is called a bend. It is apparently a reverse sheet bend. It creates a very small bump in the line, much less than a nail knot or Uni-knot. I learned of this knot from another forum years ago, and at one time it was advocated in the little booklets for beginners put out by Scientific Anglers.

Larry
 

sweetandsalt

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canoeman, I strongly suspect you are fishing a furled thread leader not the more slip-prone Nylon Furl in question here. Bending on a leader using the Castwell connection may be imaginative and surly simple but I would be loath to recommend it.
 

dillon

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I have not fished a nylon furled leader, yet. However, i do use braided leaders for long leader dry fly fishing. I have stopped bringing the line leader connection into the rod guides. The traditional water landing method of fully extending my arm and rod back behind my head and reaching the net with a fully extended arm puts too much strain on my body, rod and leader. Most of all my body. So, I have begun handlining large trout into the net bag. Once the fish is played outI raise the rod and pull off a little line so that I can palm the leader. The rod goes under my arm and the net is held in the other hand. Then, still palming the leader I pull the fish into the net while I am in a kneeling position. With small fish a net is not even needed. Landing large fish, 17 inches and over, it has not been a problem hand lining then with 4 or 5x tippets. The hook can then be swiftly backed out and the fish be on it's way. Seldom will I ever remove a fish from the water, even for a quick lift pic.

I started hand lining fish when steelheading with a spey rod and now have adapted it to trout fishing. BTW, I don't ever use a net for steelhead and prefer to land both trout and steelhead without the assistance of others.
 

canoeman1947

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sweet and salt: I do have some thread furled leaders, but most of my furled leaders are nylon, and I haven't noticed any problem with slippage over the past couple of years. Of course, most of my fishing is in small streams for sunfish and bass. Possibly if I hook into a large fish, there might be some slippage. However, I put a lot of strain on the bend when I pull it tight, much more than most fish could exert, and there is no slippage. I have found a lot of people to be skeptical about this "knot" and loath to use it. Have you ever used it? Interestingly enough, I have also used it to connect fly line to regular nylon leader, connecting the bend to either surgeon's loop or perfection loop. Again, no slipping.

Larry
 

sweetandsalt

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"Have you ever used it?"

I have not and I am something of a knot nut but this bend and also the Turle bend, popular among old time salmon anglers are among knots I have chosen not to employ. I am biased toward concentric coil-based knots for various line attachments. I am old enough though that sometimes I use the term, "bending on a fly".
 
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