Fly line to leader...to loop or not to loop?

[saflyfish]

Im curious what people are using to attach fly line to leader.
Either loop to loop or leader to fly line with nail/needle knot?
Of course loop to loop is much quicker and saves fly line and leader material but i find its bulky and too many knots in the section.I cut the fly line loop off and attach with the needle knot.Problem is changing leaders one has to cut back the fly line.I have heard there is approx 30cm level line after the loop before taper starts kicking in.I doubt one would change a leader more than say 15 times in the lifetime of the actual line.Assuming tippet rings are used or loop to loop tippet to leader knots are constructed.
Opinions?

 

[karstopo]

Im curious what people are using to attach fly line to leader.
Either loop to loop or leader to fly line with nail/needle knot?
Of course loop to loop is much quicker and saves fly line and leader material but i find its bulky and too many knots in the section.I cut the fly line loop off and attach with the needle knot.Problem is changing leaders one has to cut back the fly line.I have heard there is approx 30cm level line after the loop before taper starts kicking in.I doubt one would change a leader more than say 15 times in the lifetime of the actual line.Assuming tippet rings are used or loop to loop tippet to leader knots are constructed.
Opinions?

I've never had a failure, fresh or salt with thousands of hours of fishing and scores of fish up to 15 kilos, with welded loops. I don't reinforce or do anything extra. Perfection loop to the welded loop is all I use with Rio, Airflo, SA, Cortland, Cabelas, whatever line I might have on from 2 to 10 weight. I don't have a problem getting the fly to the target or if I do it's not one I can blame on the loop to loop connection.

 

[pnc]

Loops , fly line to leader, leader to tippet. Personally , cut off welded loops. Have had coating on line separate on factory loops. Keep sizes of loops small , but more to do with reeling through guides. Rolling up so to speak.

....... pc

 

[sparsegraystubble]

I far prefer the smoothness of a needle or nail knot going in and out of the guides. That’s particularly true when landing a fish under pressure with a longer leader just because the knot is in and out of the guides more frequently.

There are some discussions of this issue in the thread about attaching furled leaders that is currently the next one down. I started that one because as a recent convert to furled leaders, I am not satisfied with the bulk of the loop to loop connection. There are some good suggestions in that thread including one discussing Lefty Kreh’s solution, which is to turn the rod upside down to allow the juncture to go in and out of the tiptop more easily.

Don

 

[el jefe]

Loops , fly line to leader, leader to tippet. Personally , cut off welded loops. Have had coating on line separate on factory loops. Keep sizes of loops small , but more to do with reeling through guides. Rolling up so to speak.

....... pc

A solution to the coating peeling on factory welded loops is to use the braided nylon loops from Ard, of this board. They are short pieces of line--just a few inches--with a loop on both ends. Loop on end to the fly line, and the other to whatever you would have looped directly to the fly line previously. It is a much thicker loop than the mono from which a leader loop is made, and thus does not cut the coating on the loop on the fly line. I have never noticed any hinging using these loops, and they do a better job of using and preserving the loop on the end of the fly line.

 

[sweetandsalt]

As I have previously written, I was long an anti-Loop-to-Loop leader rigger...but I have changed my mind and now do use them. It is true that the sleek factory welded loops are generally not the full tensile strength of the fly line itself and also true that the Perfection Loop is not the strongest loop knot...which doesn't matter as it is in the thickist, strongest part of the leader.

​Early on, experimenting with looping on various leader types, I commenced mechanically reinforcing the thermo-chemical weeded loop by wrapping a 12 - 15 turn nail knot of 20# Fluoro over the doubled section of line rendering the loop stronger than the line itself. I have never had one fail including in the rigors of the salt. Regarding the leader butt section loop cutting the softer fly line coating in the loop, I have seen this but not have it happen on my own rigs. Its cause was employing a leader butt diameter too thin to correctly match the line weight/diameter. For example a 5-weight line usually matches best with .021 (aprox.) diameter butt and an 8-weight with around .028". These are thick enough to not slice into the coating. Similarly, both Braided Butt and Furled leaders pose even less likelihood of cutting the coating.

I noted on my recent exotic saltwater trip that both premium lines I fished from RIO, Flats Pro and Leviathan, both featured a sleeve reinforced welded loop and a conversation with their development personnel revealed this extra step renders the loop stronger than the line. Whether this cost increasing step will spread throughout their line-up is uncertain.

I tend to fish long leaders, 15' for trout and 12' for bonefish and the loop-to-loop can not hang up in my rods' tip-top. With the Nylon Braid and Nylon Furl their relative softness is a none issue. And, with the larger guides typical of saltwater rods I have not had problems either. Were I fishing a little 4-weight with a hand built traditional monofilament leader (which I rarely do as the Braided Butt offers so many advantages), then I would likely forgo the convenience of the loop and multi-turn nail knot the leader butt section to the line and never change it, simply re-build my blood knotted leader's lower sections as necessary. ​

 

[rockriver]

Loop to loop.

 

[pnc]

No my problems with factory loops are not from mono cutting or being to thin. All my leader butts measure no more than 0.002 less than end of fly line. Optimum size for turnover.
Problems with loops were not from cutting. Line coating would stretch , thin , and seperate from welded splice. Leaving core exposed from splice into loop.
Personally I think process of welding a splice. Weakens line coatings going into splice.
I have never had such happen with loops I whip finish.

......... pc

Another thought.... aside from the benefits I find in using loop connections. When I first started, a major reason was to avoid knots passing through guides. Any knot, coated or not can catch between guide & rod. A loop can't.

 

[coug]

I have gone back and forth through the years including welding my own loops on fly lines. The only thing I am sure of is that I will probably change my mind some time in the future.

 

[Hirdy]

Loops. Always loops.

Cheers,
Graeme

 

[scotty macfly]

What I do when fishing a nylon leader is the loop to loop, but....I tie a heavier piece of mono/nylon line with a nail knot to the fly line, but on the other end is a loop. Now I tie a loop to loop connection to the 8 inch piece of mono to my leader.

This way, I don't have to clip off the end of my fly line to change my leader. I just un-loop it, and put on a new leader.

But these days I use only a furled leader, so even with the 8 inch heavier piece of mono, everything is loop to loop.

 

[flyby1]

Loop at end of backing big enough to put a fly line spool through, loop at end of fly line (have been using factory loops with no problems), loop at end of leader big enough to get a tippet with a fly through.

 

[dillon]

I always reserved leader loops for purposes of connecting the tippet to a streamer fly. However, when fly line leader loops were recently born I have been using them without failure or hinge both fore and aft. Although this thread is about a leader to line connection, my favorite use is skagit head or fly line to running line or backing. A bimini twist loop large enough to pass the reel through makes changing fly lines and skagit heads a relative breeze. Now, loops are my friends...

 

[bigspencer]

Yeah....the one thing I can't stand is the nicely welded loop at the end of like 6"-8" of flat...level, DEAD line. If there is that dead portion of line at the end I usually cut the loop off and tie off with nail? knot...[or other name]. If I can't discern a flat, level bit of line I'll tie a nail? knot and simply finish by pulling end through the loop and slowly pull everything tight. Shows how limited my style of fishing has been:laugh: ...and how late I often am in replying..lol. Am about to go 4G+ with a Smartphone.....crawling out from under my rock:thumbsupu

 

[flav]

I've used loop to loop connections for almost 20 years.

For years I made my own loops. When fly line companies started making welded loops on most of their lines I was very pleased.

 

[MTtyer]

There is an article by Lefty Krey in the December 1984 (yeah, 1984) edition of Fly Fisherman magazine where he recommends loop-to-loop connections in the end of fly lines and in tippet connections. He also recommends, what we would call today, "furled leaders". It took the industry about 30 years to catch up and put loops in the end of fly lines and they haven't even started to acknowledge the superiority of furled leaders yet. But of course.....if they did that....they wouldn't sell as many leaders, "fast action" flyrods, "half-line-weight heavier" fly lines, or other gimmicks.

 

[philly]

Loop to Loop. I've been using furled leaders for about 20 years now. So I've always used loop to loop to connect fly line to leader. And loop to loop to attach the leader to the tippet.

 

[Sirgrumps]

Always loop. It makes for changing that mush easier

 

[falconer57]

Loop to Loop. But I do throw a couple small nail knots on those "welded" loops on the fly line. The weld is only on the surface plastic of the lines. The cores are not really welded together AFAIK.

 

[thomasw]

Loops sure are convenient. I use them when the subtleness of my fly presentation is not so much of an issue, such with a sink tip or sinking line when fishing still waters. But for floating flies with a longer leader where I do not want any hinge points or spray/splash points or any lack of ease of feeding the leader through the guides when fighting a fish, I will go for one of the smoothest line to leader connections possible: the needle nail knot. This linked video is an example of what I do... BTW, with my freshwater fishing I use a needle nail knot as well from the line to the backing -- it is so clean and smooth.

Needle Nail Knot || leader to line