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  1. Default Fly line to leader...to loop or not to loop?

    Im curious what people are using to attach fly line to leader.
    Either loop to loop or leader to fly line with nail/needle knot?
    Of course loop to loop is much quicker and saves fly line and leader material but i find its bulky and too many knots in the section.I cut the fly line loop off and attach with the needle knot.Problem is changing leaders one has to cut back the fly line.I have heard there is approx 30cm level line after the loop before taper starts kicking in.I doubt one would change a leader more than say 15 times in the lifetime of the actual line.Assuming tippet rings are used or loop to loop tippet to leader knots are constructed.
    Opinions?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Fly line to leader...to loop or not to loop?

    Quote Originally Posted by saflyfish View Post
    Im curious what people are using to attach fly line to leader.
    Either loop to loop or leader to fly line with nail/needle knot?
    Of course loop to loop is much quicker and saves fly line and leader material but i find its bulky and too many knots in the section.I cut the fly line loop off and attach with the needle knot.Problem is changing leaders one has to cut back the fly line.I have heard there is approx 30cm level line after the loop before taper starts kicking in.I doubt one would change a leader more than say 15 times in the lifetime of the actual line.Assuming tippet rings are used or loop to loop tippet to leader knots are constructed.
    Opinions?
    I've never had a failure, fresh or salt with thousands of hours of fishing and scores of fish up to 15 kilos, with welded loops. I don't reinforce or do anything extra. Perfection loop to the welded loop is all I use with Rio, Airflo, SA, Cortland, Cabelas, whatever line I might have on from 2 to 10 weight. I don't have a problem getting the fly to the target or if I do it's not one I can blame on the loop to loop connection.

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  4. #3
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    Default Re: Fly line to leader...to loop or not to loop?

    Loops , fly line to leader, leader to tippet. Personally , cut off welded loops. Have had coating on line separate on factory loops. Keep sizes of loops small , but more to do with reeling through guides. Rolling up so to speak.

    ....... pc

  5. #4

    Default Re: Fly line to leader...to loop or not to loop?

    I far prefer the smoothness of a needle or nail knot going in and out of the guides. That’s particularly true when landing a fish under pressure with a longer leader just because the knot is in and out of the guides more frequently.

    There are some discussions of this issue in the thread about attaching furled leaders that is currently the next one down. I started that one because as a recent convert to furled leaders, I am not satisfied with the bulk of the loop to loop connection. There are some good suggestions in that thread including one discussing Lefty Kreh’s solution, which is to turn the rod upside down to allow the juncture to go in and out of the tiptop more easily.

    Don

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Fly line to leader...to loop or not to loop?

    Quote Originally Posted by pnc View Post
    Loops , fly line to leader, leader to tippet. Personally , cut off welded loops. Have had coating on line separate on factory loops. Keep sizes of loops small , but more to do with reeling through guides. Rolling up so to speak.

    ....... pc
    A solution to the coating peeling on factory welded loops is to use the braided nylon loops from Ard, of this board. They are short pieces of line--just a few inches--with a loop on both ends. Loop on end to the fly line, and the other to whatever you would have looped directly to the fly line previously. It is a much thicker loop than the mono from which a leader loop is made, and thus does not cut the coating on the loop on the fly line. I have never noticed any hinging using these loops, and they do a better job of using and preserving the loop on the end of the fly line.

  7. #6

    Default Re: Fly line to leader...to loop or not to loop?

    As I have previously written, I was long an anti-Loop-to-Loop leader rigger...but I have changed my mind and now do use them. It is true that the sleek factory welded loops are generally not the full tensile strength of the fly line itself and also true that the Perfection Loop is not the strongest loop knot...which doesn't matter as it is in the thickist, strongest part of the leader.

    ​Early on, experimenting with looping on various leader types, I commenced mechanically reinforcing the thermo-chemical weeded loop by wrapping a 12 - 15 turn nail knot of 20# Fluoro over the doubled section of line rendering the loop stronger than the line itself. I have never had one fail including in the rigors of the salt. Regarding the leader butt section loop cutting the softer fly line coating in the loop, I have seen this but not have it happen on my own rigs. Its cause was employing a leader butt diameter too thin to correctly match the line weight/diameter. For example a 5-weight line usually matches best with .021 (aprox.) diameter butt and an 8-weight with around .028". These are thick enough to not slice into the coating. Similarly, both Braided Butt and Furled leaders pose even less likelihood of cutting the coating.

    I noted on my recent exotic saltwater trip that both premium lines I fished from RIO, Flats Pro and Leviathan, both featured a sleeve reinforced welded loop and a conversation with their development personnel revealed this extra step renders the loop stronger than the line. Whether this cost increasing step will spread throughout their line-up is uncertain.

    I tend to fish long leaders, 15' for trout and 12' for bonefish and the loop-to-loop can not hang up in my rods' tip-top. With the Nylon Braid and Nylon Furl their relative softness is a none issue. And, with the larger guides typical of saltwater rods I have not had problems either. Were I fishing a little 4-weight with a hand built traditional monofilament leader (which I rarely do as the Braided Butt offers so many advantages), then I would likely forgo the convenience of the loop and multi-turn nail knot the leader butt section to the line and never change it, simply re-build my blood knotted leader's lower sections as necessary. ​

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  9. #7
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    Default Re: Fly line to leader...to loop or not to loop?

    Loop to loop.

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  11. #8
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    Default Re: Fly line to leader...to loop or not to loop?

    No my problems with factory loops are not from mono cutting or being to thin. All my leader butts measure no more than 0.002 less than end of fly line. Optimum size for turnover.
    Problems with loops were not from cutting. Line coating would stretch , thin , and seperate from welded splice. Leaving core exposed from splice into loop.
    Personally I think process of welding a splice. Weakens line coatings going into splice.
    I have never had such happen with loops I whip finish.

    ......... pc

    Another thought.... aside from the benefits I find in using loop connections. When I first started, a major reason was to avoid knots passing through guides. Any knot, coated or not can catch between guide & rod. A loop can't.

  12. #9
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    Default Re: Fly line to leader...to loop or not to loop?

    I have gone back and forth through the years including welding my own loops on fly lines. The only thing I am sure of is that I will probably change my mind some time in the future.

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  14. #10
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    Default Re: Fly line to leader...to loop or not to loop?

    Loops. Always loops.

    Cheers,
    Graeme
    FFi Certified Casting Instructor

    Failing to practice is practicing to fail.

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