Stronger loop to loop

[original cormorant]

I want to improve the strength of my loop to loops. This follows two recent incidents with loop to loop failures.

First, 25lb seaguar broke at the end of the loop when single loop to looped to a wire bite tippet. I crimp loops on my wire bite tippets. Would a double (or triple) catspaw have been stronger or should I use a different bite tippet design?

Secondly, 40lb seaguar broke apparently at the surgeons knot forming the loop - it was loop to looped to a 50lb gudebrod braided loop on the flyline and no remnant of the leader remained. Would a perfection or other loop knot have been stronger, if so which knot?

 

[Rip Tide]

I'm a big fan of using loop2loop connections, but personally when attaching tippet to wire I use an Albright knot followed by a uni knot lock
But if you're keen on using a loop2loop then you would want to use a doubled loop. For the doubled loop most people would chose a Bimini twist, but really if you went with a multi turn surgeon's loop or a spider hitch you'd be fine.
(the spider hitch is really just a 5 turn surgeon's, only harder to tie )
Even with the Albright it's smart to use a doubled line.
And by that I mean tie your loop knot and then use that loop to tie the Albright (or your doubled loop)

Secondly, a perfection loop is not nearly as strong as the surgeon's, but that should make no difference at all with 40# material
I don't use fluoro myself so that there might make a difference.

 

[rodneyshishido]

For "heavier" line, my preference is always variants of the bimini twist. I got to test the knots on an official knot testing machine and always had the line break. It is not a fast knot to tie, but holds extremely well.

 

[Rip Tide]

Reading that over, I can see that I didn't explain myself very well

To make a doubled loop, tie a loop knot as you normally would, be that a Bimini, a surgeon's or whatever, making sure that it has "long legs" ( an extended size loop)
Then take that loop and tie a 2 or 3 turn surgeon's loop with it ending up with four legs or a doubled loop
With that doubled loop you can attach your tippet material with double the strength

If you're using a Bimini to tie into an Albright, then you've already got the double legs.

 

[original cormorant]

My starting point is tying knots on the boat.

I go on the boat with a leader that is probably tied witth an 80lb bite tippet I then cut that off and tie a loop to attach a wire tippet loop to loop - bimini totally out of the question on the boat, easier to change leader. I want to act quickly not spend time getting a bag out of a hatch on the boat, getting a new leader out of the bag, putting the redundant one away and attaching the new leader. The suggestions don't seem to take practicality into account. My loaded ready to fish leader will not be long enough to tie any sort of doubled loop.

Should I be using something other than a rapidly tied loop to loop to attach a wire tippet? Is my approch of using loop to loop on a crimped loop on a wire tippet fatally flawed? If so what method should I use to attach a wire tippet under fire? Should I start again using knottable wire - if so which one and how?

 

[osseous]

You don't want to loop wire to mono or flouro- wire will win. Albright is a good option, as explained above. The flexible wires are generally favorable with fly casts either way- and the Albright is still a great choice.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[Rip Tide]

Tying good knots is a fly fishing fundamental, no less important than casting or learning to read the water.
Learning to tie good knots is just a matter of practice. A little repetition goes a long way.
That said, sometimes you get "buck fever" and you just gotta do what you gotta do.
For such an instance,I carry one of these (just one).
Then when things cool down, I'll tie the proper knot.

 

[sweetandsalt]

"Should I be using something other than a rapidly tied loop to loop to attach a wire tippet? Is my approch of using loop to loop on a crimped loop on a wire tippet fatally flawed? If so what method should I use to attach a wire tippet under fire? Should I start again using knottable wire - if so which one and how?"

Yes, as osseous also wrote, the Albright Knot was designed for this application. Use at least a dozen turns and as Rip wrote, a finishing knot is a good if not necessary idea. Make sure you slide the coils tight to the doubled wire before finishing snugging. This is an easy and, for us salts, a necessary knot to master.

For loops, Perfection, Surgeons and Biminis all have their place (but not with wire) and in my backing I also double strand my Bimini with a Surgeons.

 

[original cormorant]

Tying good knots is a fly fishing fundamental, no less important than casting or learning to read the water.
Learning to tie good knots is just a matter of practice. A little repetition goes a long way.
That said, sometimes you get "buck fever" and you just gotta do what you gotta do.
For such an instance,I carry one of these (just one).
Then when things cool down, I'll tie the proper knot.

I carry lots more than one , but without the swivel.

I do like the simplicity of loop to loop but it seems that here i should use an Albright.

All my backing terminates in doubled biminis.

Interesting to learn that surgeons is stronger than perfection.

 

[original cormorant]

Tying good knots is a fly fishing fundamental, no less important than casting or learning to read the water.
Learning to tie good knots is just a matter of practice. A little repetition goes a long way.
That said, sometimes you get "buck fever" and you just gotta do what you gotta do.
For such an instance,I carry one of these (just one).
Then when things cool down, I'll tie the proper knot.

I carry lots more than one , but without the swivel.

I do like the simplicity of loop to loop but it seems that here i should use an Albright.

All my backing terminates in doubled biminis.

Interesting to learn that surgeons is stronger than perfection.

 

[wjc]

You could always pre-tie your wire to a short section of mono or fluoro with an Albright to the wire and a loop of your choice on the other end. Then loop to loop mono to mono. Albright's are the only connections I've ever used that are both fast and strong to doubled wire that are not very susceptible to cutting through by the wire.

Breaking a 40 Lb Seaguarloop takes one hell of a lot of pressure if you did not get a bad spool of it. I have snapped off 5/0 and 6/0 Gami's with 60# Seaguar using both non-slip Lefty loops and crimped loops. I've never gotten a bad spool of Seaguar.

 

[Rip Tide]

Interesting to learn that surgeons is stronger than perfection.

I'll use the perfection loop anytime I can

a) They come out straight from the standing line, not cockeyed like the surgeons
b) You can tie then as small as you want
c) I can tie one in the dark.
But I've learned to never use one on the tippet side of my leader. That will be where the break comes every time.

 

[sweetandsalt]

The Perfection Loop is an excellent loop in thick material where strength is a non-issue. A Surgeon's is much stronger and much bulkier making it more applicable in thinner material. Though I employ both where appropriate, actual knots are in general superior to loop-to-loops connections which exist really mostly for convenience...like the Bimini in your backing to the reinforced loop at the end of you line if you are a fellow who switches lines about.

 

[original cormorant]

You could always pre-tie your wire to a short section of mono or fluoro


That sounds a good work around but I reckon I need to get my albrights to a " tie on the boat level". My knot tying approach is to have a small but practiced repetoire because I believe much of the strength of a knot is in its closing and I'll get that right if I tie it a lot. To date I've only used albrights for attaching heavy mono bite tippets - off the boat. On the boat I've tended to use a slim beauty or modified slim beauty.

This was fishing to chum with a fly tied on a 2/0 or 4/0 circle hook and was blamed on a "big mutton" by the guide. Earlier I'd been broken at the catspaw with 25lb seaguar and a gummy minnow - blamed on a "big mutton" by the guide (which is why I was fishing 40lb straight through). 15 years ago on the same island a break in a whipped loop (loop to looped mono cut through fly line) on a tt #12 was also attributed to a "big mutton" . So the guides tend to blame break-offs to powerful fish on muttons. We had seen big tiger sharks in the vicinity and a bait angler was spooled a couple of days later. So who knows what it was.

 

[nedun]

I have never seen a video that demonstrates the proper ways of tying the "Albright Knot".