Clinch or Improved Clinch
- Thread starter old timer
- Start date
Why is the point of the "improved" cinch to tuck the tail end under so it doesn't slip unless the tail end slips? It seems to me the cinch knot would not have been improved unless this was an issue.
We need someone to join and tell us how the improved cinch knot came to be
The video has a clear disclaimer because it's not very scientific.
We need someone to join and tell us how the improved cinch knot came to be
The video has a clear disclaimer because it's not very scientific.
Rip Tide
Well-known member
I like the regular clinch
In my experience when you add extra steps to the clinch such as with the "improved clinch' or the Trilene knot it just makes in more difficult to draw the knot tight.
... and when your knot is not tight it slips
... and knots that slip break
In my experience when you add extra steps to the clinch such as with the "improved clinch' or the Trilene knot it just makes in more difficult to draw the knot tight.
... and when your knot is not tight it slips
... and knots that slip break
silver creek
Well-known member
Orvis has also shown that the regular clinch is sometimes stronger than the improved clinch. But as with the video you posted, this not prove that this is a finding that applies to all brands of material.
The Yellowstone Anger's 2012 Tippet Shootout went a bit further than the video and Orvis. They tested many brands of tipper material including both nylon mono and Fluorocarbon brands.
They tested the brands for tippet strength and then for knot strength using different knots. The published the results for 3 fluorocarbon and 3 nylon tippets. The reason they published only 3 brands of each material was because in the first round of tests, these 3 brands were the strongest tippets in their respective categories. So why waste paper in Fly Fisherman Magazine publishing the results for the weaker brands.
The Yellowstone Angler tested each knot 5 times and used the average break strength. The video tested a knot once. Averaging is a much more accurate method of analysis.
Tippet Shootout - Yellowstone Angler
Here's the comparison chart. Whether the clinch or improved clinch is stronger depends on the brand of the material.
This suggests to me that a video using a single brand of material likely only applies to the material tested. As with all tests, we must be careful when there is variability because different brand which have different formulations are used. A test only applies to the actual brand of tippet tested.
Here is what the Yellowstone Angler said about the improved clinch knot.
“The good news is that the improved clinch, which almost everyone uses to tie on their flies, ended up testing the third strongest out of 15 different tippet-to-fly knots. Only the San Diego jam and double improved clinch averaged stronger breaks.”
Regardless of knot tests, I think the most important thing is that the angler be able to tie the knot consistently well. Therefore, I do not suggest that you change to the improved clinch. I may well be the best knot in your hands.
For those who use the improved clinch, I also believe there is no reason for them to change either.
New fly fishers can make their own decision.
Very well summed up, Silver Creek. I tell everyone to TEST their knots using THEIR material. If you're considering a change- take the new knot and tie it to one hook. Tie your current knot to a second hook at the other end of the line- and pull the two hooks apart with two pairs of pliers. Do this repeatedly until you reach a consensus about the new knot being better or worse. You can do a series of sharp pulls to simulate setting the hook- as well as somewhat static pulls, gradually increasing tension until one or the other knots fails. Only then will you really know how the knot is going to perform for YOU. A single pull to failure proves nothing. Every knot slips before it fails. If that improved clinch knot shown in Rio's video was not fully seated, that would account for the low breaking strength it exhibited. I have never known the std clinch to outperform the improved clinch on lighter lines. I'm not about to change my opinion based on that video and a single test.
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original cormorant
Well-known member
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What is the "double clinch" ?
Im hoping that its the knot Ive been using for the past 20 years or so. That is clinch with 3 turns then 2 turns on the tail. (or maybe thats stronger!)
Im hoping that its the knot Ive been using for the past 20 years or so. That is clinch with 3 turns then 2 turns on the tail. (or maybe thats stronger!)
Silver Creek...................Ok but I always use Rio tippet. Besides that point. We really don't know how many times Rio tested. I also have faith that Rio tied the knots properly. I'm not sure about Yellowstone. I know about there test. I've even posted the link to it on this forum. In its test the improved clinch beat out the clinch using Rio tippet. So, one of the tests between Rio and Yellowstone is wrong. My personal experience is the clinch knot is stronger, so of course, I lean to Rio being right. Rio has zero reasons to not give accurate results. It has no reflection on their product. Rio also showed the break test. It's hard to argue with what we see with our own eyes.
So, take your pick on who to believe. Personally, i'm staying with the clinch.
So, take your pick on who to believe. Personally, i'm staying with the clinch.
Why? Blind faith?? Go test them now- actually test them. Bet you find that the improved clinch wins. Why? Many, many tests like this- over many many years..... and I took a few minutes and tested it myself.
Test knots. It's really not hard, and doesn't take very long. Then you KNOW- and they're YOUR knots. The way you tie them with the material you are gonna fish~ why wouldn't you want that knowledge? That's how I learned the Davy knot was a turd~
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Hellbender
Well-known member
Yep, seeing is believing.
silver creek
Well-known member
Silver Creek...................Ok but I always use Rio tippet. Besides that point. We really don't know how manyOld timer, more power to you.
However, allow me to point out that the Yellowstone Angler test did use and publish the test on Rio Powerflex tippet which is the Rio nylon mono tippet material.
Furthermore the equipment that the Yellowstone Anger used is more expensive and accurate that the equipment on the video. That is probably a non issue since I doubt the testing equipment is the problem. I think the methodology is the problem.
The YA test actually test 6 knots so that they can eliminate a knot that for whatever reason is an outlier. Then they average the 5 knots that are clustered near the same breaking strength. As I said, this is a much better experimental method.
I do KNOW how many times Rio tested. The say so right in the video. They tested one knot once!
May I suggest that you have confirmation bias and self serving bias as to which test to believe. This is suggested by your comment that a person from Rio knows more about how to tie knots correctly than Yellowstone Anglers who's job is to tie knots on a daily basis.
12 Common Biases that Affect How We Make Everyday Decisions | Psychology Today
Cognitive Bias
I believe the problem with the testing method in the video is sampling error. By doing only one test they have no way to determine if the result of that test is representative of any of the knots in their video. They have no break test of other identical knots to compare their results with. This is really bad as far research is concerned.
I'm glad you use Rio tippet. This makes the Yellowstone Angler test even more important to you, since they used Rio as well.
Did you notice that the Rio tippet test results was the average of 5 break tests and it was with Rio Powerflex, which I suspect is the Rio Tippet you use.
Finally, the Rio Video showed that the improved clinch was so much weaker than the clinch that it was not believe able to me. The video says the clinch has 89% strength of the line and the improved clinch is only 66% of the breaking strength of the line.
Really? The improved clinch is a 66% strength knot? I don’t believe that. If this is true, no one would use the improved clinch. This flunks the smell test and the common sense test.
tcorfey
Well-known member
The issue of knot testing comes up quite often and there are lots of opinions and lots of tests using very expensive equipment but none of it is entirely conclusive because as Silver pointed out in a post back in February of 2017 "we are not very good at tying reproducible knots. Tom Rosenbauer has used the $30,000.00 Orvis testing machine to test identical knots tied with identical materials by the various "expert" fly fishers on the Orvis staff. They cannot tie the same strength knot consistently with the same materials."
The full thread can be read here Knot Strength
In that thread Silver also pointed out three reasons why knot tests are not conclusive.
1. Most knot tests are done when the mono/fluoro is dry, ie, right after tying the knot. Note Silver pointed out that none of us fish with "dry" knots and when wetted line material acts differently then when it is dry.
2. Inconsistent knot tying even among so-called experts.
3. The "best knot" depends on what brand of material is used.
I would add items 4 and 5.
4. The best knot depends on the diameter of the material being used.
5. The best knot also depends on the diameter of the material in relation to the size of the fly.
Other knot tests if you are interested:
Consent Form | Field & Stream
Ask the Experts: What Knot Do You Use to Tie on a Fly? - Orvis News
Illustrated knot table | Global FlyFisher | A test in the print magazine Fly Fisherman showed the Trilene and the Orvis knot to be equally strong and on top of that said that they were able to maintain 100% of the line strength. I really have my doubt if that will hold for all types and thicknesses of line, but still it does prove that these could be the knots of choice for the concerned fly fisher.
Fly Fishing Knots: The Last Link
If you are curious the knots I use they are:
- Normal clinch for most flies (Note I use 6 turns on most flies and 8 turns for smaller tippet with smaller flies).
- Non-slip Mono loop for most streamers.
- Palomar for larger flies with heavy tippet usually in the salt.
Overall I believe you should use the knot or knots you personally have the most confidence in and not worry about what someone else is using regardless of their expertise or the cost of their equipment they used for testing as we all have biases that can and do affect the test results.
Regards,
Tim C.
The full thread can be read here Knot Strength
In that thread Silver also pointed out three reasons why knot tests are not conclusive.
1. Most knot tests are done when the mono/fluoro is dry, ie, right after tying the knot. Note Silver pointed out that none of us fish with "dry" knots and when wetted line material acts differently then when it is dry.
2. Inconsistent knot tying even among so-called experts.
3. The "best knot" depends on what brand of material is used.
I would add items 4 and 5.
4. The best knot depends on the diameter of the material being used.
5. The best knot also depends on the diameter of the material in relation to the size of the fly.
Other knot tests if you are interested:
Consent Form | Field & Stream
Ask the Experts: What Knot Do You Use to Tie on a Fly? - Orvis News
Illustrated knot table | Global FlyFisher | A test in the print magazine Fly Fisherman showed the Trilene and the Orvis knot to be equally strong and on top of that said that they were able to maintain 100% of the line strength. I really have my doubt if that will hold for all types and thicknesses of line, but still it does prove that these could be the knots of choice for the concerned fly fisher.
Fly Fishing Knots: The Last Link
If you are curious the knots I use they are:
- Normal clinch for most flies (Note I use 6 turns on most flies and 8 turns for smaller tippet with smaller flies).
- Non-slip Mono loop for most streamers.
- Palomar for larger flies with heavy tippet usually in the salt.
Overall I believe you should use the knot or knots you personally have the most confidence in and not worry about what someone else is using regardless of their expertise or the cost of their equipment they used for testing as we all have biases that can and do affect the test results.
Regards,
Tim C.
silver creek
Well-known member
Here's another Rio knot test this time of tippet to leader knots. Take a look at what they say are breaking strengths.
At 5 min 15 sec they test the blood knot at 68% breaking strength. At 8 min 53 sec they test the triple surgeons at 66% breaking strength. Well, whats wrong with this test?
Again it fails the logic test when you compare the results with the test of the clinch knot on the other video. Remember they "tested" the clinch knot at 89% strength which is stronger than the commonly used knots that join tippet to leader.
If the tests are accurate, the tippet to leader knot is (89-68)/68 = 21/89 = 26% weaker than the tippet to fly knot. Why are we not breaking off our tippets rather than our flies????
Who at Rio didn't catch the fact that these test results make no practical sense?
Four fly fishing knots for connecting a leader to tippet material, and how to tie them on Vimeo
At 5 min 15 sec they test the blood knot at 68% breaking strength. At 8 min 53 sec they test the triple surgeons at 66% breaking strength. Well, whats wrong with this test?
Again it fails the logic test when you compare the results with the test of the clinch knot on the other video. Remember they "tested" the clinch knot at 89% strength which is stronger than the commonly used knots that join tippet to leader.
If the tests are accurate, the tippet to leader knot is (89-68)/68 = 21/89 = 26% weaker than the tippet to fly knot. Why are we not breaking off our tippets rather than our flies????
Who at Rio didn't catch the fact that these test results make no practical sense?
Four fly fishing knots for connecting a leader to tippet material, and how to tie them on Vimeo
Last edited:
el jefe
Well-known member
To heck with all you guys!! Non-slip mono loop.
/thread
/thread
redietz
Well-known member
Generally, that's where I do break off -- at the tippet knot.
In 60 years of fishing, I don't recall ever having a clinch knot fail. (I can't say the same of an "improved" clinch. Sometime in my twenties, I briefly bought into the "improved" part for a couple of years. At least it protected my tippet knots.)
As far as the non-slip loop, I haven't had the knot fail -- but I have had the loop itself fail after the fly rubs along it for a while.
Meadowlark
Well-known member
Neither...the San Diego jam knot is superior to both.
silver creek
Well-known member
Bob,
Here's a hypothetical question. You hook a fish or a snag and break off.
If given a choice would you rather have a weaker tippet to fly knot so you lose just the fly and not have to rerig a new tippet and fly OR would you rather have the fly knot be stronger so you lose the entire tippet?
I think I know what you will say since you have done this for 60 years but it is a decision that everyone has to make.
If given the choice, I prefer to break off at the fly. I lose more flies I suppose, but then I leave less tippet sections in the snag or fish to tangle other angler's gear. Fluoro last for thousands of years. Even nylon mono last for 500 years before degrading completely.
I use the Orvis tippet to fly knot. I generally lose just the fly which is my preference.
myt1
Well-known member
Silver Creek...................Ok but I always use Rio tippet. Besides that point. We really don't know how many
Old timer, more power to you.
However, allow me to point out that the Yellowstone Angler test did use and publish the test on Rio Powerflex tippet which is the Rio nylon mono tippet material.
Furthermore the equipment that the Yellowstone Anger used is more expensive and accurate that the equipment on the video. That is probably a non issue since I doubt the testing equipment is the problem. I think the methodology is the problem.
The YA test actually test 6 knots so that they can eliminate a knot that for whatever reason is an outlier. Then they average the 5 knots that are clustered near the same breaking strength. As I said, this is a much better experimental method.
I do KNOW how many times Rio tested. The say so right in the video. They tested one knot once!
May I suggest that you have confirmation bias and self serving bias as to which test to believe. This is suggested by your comment that a person from Rio knows more about how to tie knots correctly than Yellowstone Anglers who's job is to tie knots on a daily basis.
12 Common Biases that Affect How We Make Everyday Decisions | Psychology Today
Cognitive Bias
I believe the problem with the testing method in the video is sampling error. By doing only one test they have no way to determine if the result of that test is representative of any of the knots in their video. They have no break test of other identical knots to compare their results with. This is really bad as far research is concerned.
I'm glad you use Rio tippet. This makes the Yellowstone Angler test even more important to you, since they used Rio as well.
Did you notice that the Rio tippet test results was the average of 5 break tests and it was with Rio Powerflex, which I suspect is the Rio Tippet you use.
Finally, the Rio Video showed that the improved clinch was so much weaker than the clinch that it was not believe able to me. The video says the clinch has 89% strength of the line and the improved clinch is only 66% of the breaking strength of the line.
Really? The improved clinch is a 66% strength knot? I don’t believe that. If this is true, no one would use the improved clinch. This flunks the smell test and the common sense test.
Very interesting.
I recently made the switch to the Improved Cinch Knot from the San Diego Jam knot, not because I thought it was a better know, but because I thought it was good enough and easier to tie.
If I am interpretting the above chart correctly, there are a few instances where the cinch knot is stronger than the improved cinch knot if using flurocarbon tippet, but not in all instances.
If using nylon...I use Rio Powerflex...in all instances the improved cinch knot is stronger; again, that is if I'm reading the chart correctly.
I also started using the Davy Knot occasionally on dry flies. I might re-think that after looking at the chart.
Thanks so much.