Number of turns for blood knot?

[qacwac]

Hey guys. I'm tying up some leaders for my first saltwater trip and have some questions. I'd tried double surgeons and they just look terrible in 50 - 20# monofilament. Then I tried blood knots and they work pretty well. Then I found the video showing the toothpick trick and they got way easier. But I'm wondering about the number of turns for the blood knot. I know more for thinner line and less for thicker line, but don't have a starting point. Surely the standard 5 or 6 turns must be for tippet material and not 50-40# leader section.

So could someone give me some guidance. I'm still working on my formulas but tying them in both 40 and 50# butt sections reducing down going down all the way to 15# and then fluoro tippet.

I'm assuming 3 turns is plenty for the really heavy stuff and 4 turns maybe when I get down to 20 or 25#, and then back to a double surgeons for the 15# mono to fluoro tippet. But I'd love to use 2 turns for the heavy and 3 turns for the medium if that will hold.

Thanks.

 

[Rip Tide]

I do 3 1/2 turns when dropping from 40# to 25# test

 

[osseous]

3.5 is pretty standard for heavier stuff. Bottom line- make sure it fully sets and can't slip. Your wealth point is "downstream" on the lighter stuff. If you are stepping down substantially, go with the Improved Blood.

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[tcorfey]

Came across these recently:

5 knots to join lines together:
YouTube

The audio is just music so you can turn it down.

The blood knot Bruce Chard:
YouTube


Regards,

Tim C.

 

[osseous]

Tim C- EXCELLENT video showing the 5 knots.

I'm going to use the Uni Blood for tying right angled droppers with 6X for my winter midge nymphing. Leaving one tag long on a traditional blood knot is pretty challenging with cold fingers. Been driving me slightly nuts, frankly. This knot stabilizes the top, heavier half of the knot- and let's me tie the finger 6X with greater control.

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[denver1911]

I am not an expert and make the statement below based on my own personal experience:

I would not use a double surgeons on saltwater applications. They break too easily if you ask me. Blood knots all the way down.

 

[Druunkonego]

For big dia. jumps or for bite tippet applications, try the double Uni (or whatever you call it)... as seen here, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CSitphG0L-E

 

[ratchet]

When connecting the thicker portions of a saltwater leader using blood knots, you can and should reduce the number of turns to insure that you can properly tighten it down without damaging the surface of the line itself. I don't use any kind of tools to help me tie a blood knot, just my fingers so I can easily control the number of turns. Tying with stiff lines like Mason hard leader material, I make 3 turns with the thicker line, then 4 turns on the thinner line. I then use tiny bit of a food-grade, water based silicone lube from a dive shop that is used to lubricate the rubber components in scuba gear. The lube helps the line within the knot to slide into proper position and reduce the frictional heat that is produced when you tighten the blood knot. You might want to put on a pair of light gloves to better cinch the knot tight and prevent line cuts to your skin.

So how many line turns on a blood knot is to use? Just enough to prevent line slippage.

 

[joe_strummer]

Use gloves to set your knots. At the gardening store, I picked up some lightweight, form-fighting gloves with rubberized coating on fingers and palms that are perfect for the job. I also use Gerhke's Knot Perfect on FC. I tie my leaders w/o fully seating the knots, then come back through with gloves on seating everything, trimming and rolling up.

 

[sweetandsalt]

I tie my salt leaders with 100% Fluorocarbon. 4 to 7 turns depending on material diameter, Blood Knots NEVER Surgeons. I employ a 6X6 wrap Ligature Knot for my tippet only. Gloves are very smart, I use a pair of dish towels, wrap the Fluro sections around them and pull that lubricated Blood Knot really, really hard...till I see/hear it snap into total tight seating or I break it. Trim close and when done, at home I'll coat each knot with a thin fairing of UV resin...I skip this not really necessary step in the field. My heavy butt is going to mass-match with my fly line and my tippet is going to be 4' long. I use a 6 turn Non-Slip Loop Knot to affix my fly which I tighten using the extra large split ring that holds my nippers. I can't wait for March.

 

[Southerncaster]

For tying trout leaders, 5 or 6 turn blood knots on all leader sections except the last, on which I use uni knots. Then attach a fine tippet with a two or three turn surgeon's.

Edit:
I don't know why I never gave this any thought, but after reading Original Cormorant's post below, 3 and 4 turn blood knots are probably better and way strong enough for most all trout fishing with light tippets here in the southeast.

 

[80302]

Hey guys. I'm tying up some leaders for my first saltwater trip and have some questions. I'd tried double surgeons and they just look terrible in 50 - 20# monofilament. .


Thanks.

Hummmh, so I've been fishing the salt for many, many years and use a double surgeon knot with never a issue.
What is so terrible happening with your knot? : ]

 

[original cormorant]

I normally tie blood knots with 4 turns except when tying a bite tippet or to a heavy butt section when I use 3 turns on the heavier line. It works for me, The more turns the more difficult it is to snug the knot so I'm working on the principle that a well snugged knot with 4 turns is better than a poorly snugged knot with more turns.

 

[dynaflow]

The Double and/or Triple Surgeons knots are easy to tie but unless tied perfectly they pop like cotton.They're also bulky.I gave up on them.Incidentally,the Kiritimati guides use Blood knots because they were taught that knot,but I prefer a Uni knot for all in-the-field leader and tippet connections.

 

[osseous]

A double Uni I assume? Why

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[sweetandsalt]

I don't want to come of as a jerk (too much) but the virtue of the Surgeons Knot is it is easy to tie. I do like Surgeons Loops and use then in part of my rigging but they are an inferiors, bulky, off-straight and inelegant leader knot.

The question of how many turns is a loaded inquiry. Understand that all concentric coil knots, Blood, Nail, Albright, Non-Slip Loop, whatever, gain their integrity via the coils snugly locking against oneanother. How many coils can you properly tighten without overlap or gaps? Theoretically the more the better but there are diminishing returns if perfect tightening is unreliable. I can tie an 18 turn Nail Knot (using a thin tube) but usually rely on a 12 - 15 as it is enough surface distribution and easier to perfectly snug. The number of Blood Knot coils in a hand built leader for trout or salt is often predicted on the diameter and stiffness of the material. Further a fully tightened 4 turn knot in the thicker sections is not what is going to break, rather the lower knots in the thinner material is where one wants to emphasize integrity. So I'll use 5 turns in 2X, 6 turns in 3 - 4X and 7 turns in 5X. Crucially, inspect and check every knot upon tightening it. Is it proper and symmetrical, the tags opposite and parallel, are there any unwanted frictional damaged areas during the draw down process and can YOU break it applying stout pressure.

Knot craft and understating leader construction and dynamics are fundamental angler skills

 

[osseous]

About a year ago, I began tying my blood knots "in one direction". I make all the turns with one tag end- pulling the other tag end thru after (5) turns- and pinching that pass thru area...then completing the remaining (5) turns with that same, original tag, and doing thd second pass thru. Give it a try- it has made blood knots a lot quicker and easier to tie. No tool needed, either.

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[silver creek]

I tie my salt leaders with 100% Fluorocarbon. 4 to 7 turns depending on material diameter, Blood Knots NEVER Surgeons.

Fly Fisherman Magazine did a test of blood knots years ago using an instrument to measure how to tie the strongest blood knots. they found that 4 to 7 turns was optimum. Any fewer turns and the knots could slip and any more, the knots may not tighten all the way.

The also found that the strongest blood knots "grabbed" an equal length of line on each side of the knot to best prevent slippage. This makes logical sense to me that the amount of line "grabbed" on each side by the wraps should be equalized for the strongest knot.

So take an extra turn with the thinner line when tying different diameter lines together. For example, 4 turns with the thicker and 5 with the thinner line.

FFM did the all the tests with nylon material since the testing was done before fluorocarbon line was available.

 

[silver creek]

About a year ago, I began tying my blood knots "in one direction". I make all the turns with one tag end- pulling the other tag end thru after (5) turns- and pinching that pass thru area...then completing the remaining (5) turns with that same, original tag, and doing thd second pass thru. Give it a try- it has made blood knots a lot quicker and easier to tie. No tool needed, either.

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Interesting. I assume you wrap the thinner around the thicker????

 

[Southerncaster]

For targeting larger freshwater river stripers, bass species, and inshore saltwater I use a 2 or 3 section leader. If I use blood knots in a 3 sectioned leader it's to connect the upper two heavier leader sections, with uni's on the bottom sections --but sometimes I might use all uni's. For a 2 sectioned leader I just use uni's.

Aside from various flaws in my fishing techniques, I'm obsessive about knots and I'll have to at least say I virtually never have knot failure. Even with a surgeon's knot on light trout tippets --they hold fine and any breakoffs that do happen are almost always my fault in underestimating a fish.

Once, years ago, I bought a spool of Rio fluoro trout tippet and every fish was breaking off on it --fish that had no business breaking off! Couldn't figure out what the problem was, other than a flawed batch of Rio, which I never bought again. I switched back to my favored Froghair and the breakoffs ended.

 

[osseous]

Interesting. I assume you wrap the thinner around the thicker????

Typically, I do- just because it is fresh off the spool and I can grab a bit longer section to make the end result the right length. You can do the uneven wrap thing with differing diameters- just gotta relate the tag you are passing thru to the thicker or thinner to know which half of the knot you are working on. If I am wrapping with the thinner stuff, the first set of turns would be the set with fewer turns. With tippet, I generally do the same number of wraps- either 4 or 5, depending.

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