Are high end fly lines worth the expense?

[mike63]

I've been using Rio Gold and Rio Grand WF5F but these retail for $75 which is far from cheap. I have gotten better deals by shopping around and using eBay but I'm wondering if they are worth the extra expense. Aside from the braided loops, is there really a perfomance edge over entry level Orvis Clearwater, Rio Mainstream, or even Cabelas Prestige?

Assuming the better fly lines are worth it, is there perhaps a good line that doesn't sport the $75 price tag?

 

[Ard]

Hi Mike,

I've used a whole lot of Scientific Anglers Mastery lines selling around 45 - 50 dollars. These were always my idea of high end lines. I've also caught plenty of trout with Cortland 333 & 444 lines. In todays market there are lines that claim to be so specific that the next generation might just claim to be for certain size fish. If you were to perhaps buy the 'Lunker Line' then who knows............

I openly admit to being a curmudgeon when it comes to modern fly lines.

Ard

 

[fredaevans]

Unfortunatly there are several 'middle men' who need their take. No problem with that as a line box could sit on the retailers shelf for a very long time.

What gets me 'off' is the thousand dollar rods/reels out there. Same idea as above, but other than you want/"need" the latest and greatest .. why would you go there.

For context, a very high end reel maker just posted up their newest/greatest lever controlled drag action reel. For heavy salt this this is probably the 'Bee's Knees.' ($1200 USD)

For a Spey rod I purchased the 'baby brother' (not the same manufacturer) of this 'thing' for $164.00 (postage included) out of the UK.

Different applications, better/worse builds? Yup, but in the main, a reel is a place to store a fly line. Think me wrong? What would you pay for a Hardy (made in China for the most part) that doesn't even have a drag system?

From the numbers I've run this thing can't cost forty bucks to produce in reel cost. And sells/asking for what? I'll spare all my thoughts on some the newest/greatest/you neeeeeeed rods, et. al.

Just a thought here, but if you cut the cost by 40-50 percent, how many more would you sell if you took the 'want out of the need?'

Honestly have no idea.

 

[Jackster]

I am a firm believer in getting the right line for the rod (that is assuming you already have the right rod for indended use)
I used to purchase premium lines more freely but when they passed a certain price point they lost me. Line manufacturers MUST know that they'll reach a point of diminishing returns with their price hikes... don't they?
I still buy premium lines but only if they fall within the price I'm willing to pay. Sad but true. For me this means last years best or sale items like the Orvis Hydro's I just bought with a gift certificate I got and later, because Orvis dropped the price within my range on certain models.
I like premium lines for their usually well-crafted tapers and the built-in slickness that most of them have. The right line makes all the difference in the world in my fly fishing and casting enjoyment.

 

[woodrivertroutbum]

Some I think are a gimmick, however I just got an Airflo Forty Plus sniper fast intermediate line and this thing is AWESOME. It is a lot more aggressive than the traditional lines I have used and it took a little getting used to but this line is amazing. I shoot line twice as far and it takes less line to load the rod. This was my first Airflo line and I wont think twice about spending $80 on more of them in the future. This line is ribbed too so there is less surface contact so less friction on the guides. It litterally flows like air.

I am not trying to talk you in to this line or anything, just pointing out that I do think SOME are worth the money. Compared to the RIO striper line (also a great line) I shoot line further with less effort so that just shows that even at $80, depending on your style a certain line may or may not be worth the money to you. All you can do is try out a line and if you like it, it was worth the money. If you don't like it, it wasn't worth it.

 

[wishiniwerfishin]

Woodriver; I was just told about the Airflo sniper lines and want to give them a try. Everyone I know that has used says it's the best integrated shooting line they've cast.

I think it depends on the type of fishing your going to be doing and what matters to you when your fishing. I feel like high end fly lines for nymphing, swinging, and tossing dry's is a waste of money. But when I'm throwing heavy shooting heads, huge top waters, or big heavy Clousers I want a line that has the taper to punch my fly out there. I tried to get away with it the cheap way and just up line, but ended up with all my rods rigged up with Rio Outbound and S/A Streamer Express lines. So as far as I'm concerned i'll go cheap on my small rods(what few I have left) and spend the dough on my what matters to me.

 

[coug]

I agree with Ard that lines seem to be getting very specific. It seems they almost want us to switch lines between holes!

I do not pay that much attention to cost of lines because a difference of $20 or $30 is really not that much in the big picture of all of my fishing and tying stuff and even fuel to get to my fishing spots. I suggest trying as many lines as you can and see what works best for you, and if it is one of the high end lines then ask yourself is it worth the extra $$ over a more economical line? I have several lines in the major weights I fish and will swap them around on a rod until I find the one that works best for me. A good shop will also let you try several lines. It happens to be a mid-priced SA DT line on my favorite 4 weight, but a Rio selective trout on a second 4wt I use. I built a 5wt Zaxis a couple of years ago and the local fly shop suggested Rio Grand, but I tried it and ended up with a 444 at a cheaper price and it worked better for me than the Grand. I have a custom 5wt that is my new baby and the builder suggested the SA DT, but I like the Rio Gold so went with that.

BTW, I just picked up a Rio Gold 4wt line for $40. I have a lot of trust in my local fly shop, and the owner told me Rio was changing the box but not the line, but the lines are going on sale because some people will want the latest version. My attitude is always "what is it worth to me," but I also jump on good items when on sale!

 

[Jackster]

I have a lot of trust in my local fly shop, and the owner told me Rio was changing the box but not the line, but the lines are going on sale because some people will want the latest version. My attitude is always "what is it worth to me," but I also jump on good items when on sale!

It looks as though Rio really has made a few changes, one of which I'm glad they finally ackowledge, that many floating lines don't float! Gimmicks or not... only time and use will tell.

Rio - Max Cast, Max Float Tip and Connect Core... let us hope!
Fly Fishing Technologies - Fishing Tips | RIO

 

[imxer]

Still asking. What does it cost to make a tapered fly line?

 

[overmywaders]

How much has changed in PVC fly lines since 1962?

The lines still use the SA encapsulated micro-balloon approach, which means tip diameters still are >0.031" and yet tips still sink.

Many attempts have been made to introduce hydrophobic compounds to improve flotation, but these chemicals are leeched away fairly quickly, so the makers still rely on increasing the diameter of the lines to increase the apparent buoyancy.

Planned obsolescence is built in - some makers suggest replacing lines every two years.

For those who fish with dries and cast <60', most of the difference between the lines is sizzle not steak. Silk lines, for those who like them, still are a good investment with a usable life of > 20 years with proper care.

Personally, I like the old SA Aircel Supreme (in white) or the Cortland 444 (in Peach) when I can get them because they tend to be thinner than more modern lines. I am using at present a $12 SA Concept line from Walmart on my 4wt Leonard. Not the best line, but not the worst.

IMO, whatever line feels best on the rod with the way you cast to the average distance you need... is the line you should buy, regardless of price.

 

[mike63]

I was able to pick up a new spool of Rio Grand for $39 yesterday as the box was damaged and who cares about the box. 40 bones doesn't hurts too bad and shipping was free. I was able to get a 15% discount on Rio Gold since I bought a spare spool for my reel recently, in fact the local fly shop did 15% off that as well.

I would agree on matching the line to the rod. My ZXL casts perfect with Rio Gold and feels overloaded with Grand but I like the Grand on my Sage One as I'm able to feel the faster rod load much easier. Verdict is still out on my Scott A4 4 wt, using Gold on that reel and am wondering if it's a bit too light, maybe something in the middle like Mainstream or 444?

I would really be frustrated with line that doesn't float. Nothing more irritating than seeing the first 5 feet of your line 3 inches below the surface. I want the tip my my floating line to ride like a cork.

 

[Jackster]

Still asking. What does it cost to make a tapered fly line?

I can't answer that but I would imagine the machinery to manufacture tapered lines ain't cheap. This does not even take into account the engineering that takes place in the background and the marketing and mark up and...
I read somewhere that this is the reason the Chinese haven't cloned and copied fly lines as of yet, it would cost too much to tool up for the volume they would sell.

 

[overmywaders]

A modern PVC (Polyvinyl Chloride) fly line is, at its simplest, an extruded mix of PVC, plasticizers, dyes, and micro-balloons over a hollow-braided Nylon core. The core is a constant diameter - the thickness of the extruded material varies the taper. Many fly lines are made on one length of core material and then cut apart for packaging.

Simple.

The early plastic lines used a solid braided Nylon core that was tapered, and the plastic was a single thickness. This was a holdover from tapered oil-finished lines, both silk and Nylon.

The reason that PVC floating lines often have a problem with the tip sinking is two-fold - first, if the tip is made fine enough for good presentation, it doesn't have enough volume to offset its mass (the apparent specific gravity exceeds 1.0, the specific gravity of water); second, the hollow core may become saturated with water through capillary action.

Dressing the tip with a hydrophobic coating (red tin Mucilin) may help the tip to float. Also, plugging the end of the core with Zap-A-Gap couldn't hurt.

P.S. - a single PVC fly line probably costs less than a dollar in materials and a few dollars in labor. The real cost is in advertizing - convincing you that you need the latest in fly lines.

 

[Jackster]

P.S. - a single PVC fly line probably costs less than a dollar in materials and a few dollars in labor. The real cost is in advertizing - convincing you that you need the latest in fly lines.

Sure advertising is a big part of the business. Just ask Cortland what the lack of advertising did to their business lately.
Still, there's more to the price of lines than just the material, direct labor costs and advertising costs. You're a business owner if I'm not mistaken. Do you not factor inventory, equipment costs and indirect labor costs into your products?
I'll be the first to say that asking $100.00 for a floating fly line is pushing the envelope but I will pay a decent price to get the performance enhancements that I know from experience I can detect and use to advantage when casting and fishing.
Some folks don't seem to think the fly line is a very important part of a fly fishing rig. I feel it is one of the most important components if you want a good to great fly fishing system.

 

[noreaster]

I will pay a decent price to get the performance enhancements... and use to advantage when casting and fishing.
Some folks don't seem to think the fly line is a very important part of a fly fishing rig. I feel it is one of the most important components if you want a good to great fly fishing system.

I tend to agree. If you are an experienced fly fisher, using a quality and condition specific rod and reel outfit, and you are at all concerned about accuracy and fly presentation in sensitive shallower waters, then how could you not give the fly line it fair due. Finding a good fly line that woks with your fishing conditions, rod and reel is prolly more important than buying a great gimmicky fly line that doesn't.

 

[mojo]

A modern PVC (Polyvinyl Chloride) fly line is, at its simplest, an extruded mix of PVC, plasticizers, dyes, and micro-balloons over a hollow-braided Nylon core. The core is a constant diameter - the thickness of the extruded material varies the taper. Many fly lines are made on one length of core material and then cut apart for packaging.

Simple.

The early plastic lines used a solid braided Nylon core that was tapered, and the plastic was a single thickness. This was a holdover from tapered oil-finished lines, both silk and Nylon.

The reason that PVC floating lines often have a problem with the tip sinking is two-fold - first, if the tip is made fine enough for good presentation, it doesn't have enough volume to offset its mass (the apparent specific gravity exceeds 1.0, the specific gravity of water); second, the hollow core may become saturated with water through capillary action.

Dressing the tip with a hydrophobic coating (red tin Mucilin) may help the tip to float. Also, plugging the end of the core with Zap-A-Gap couldn't hurt.

P.S. - a single PVC fly line probably costs less than a dollar in materials and a few dollars in labor. The real cost is in advertizing - convincing you that you need the latest in fly lines.

Again, I'm a BIG fan of SS. I've had the "peach" lines, didn't last but a couple years. Tried the Wulff TT, Orvis ( which was the best sink tip floating line I ever had), has Cortland Sylk, which I sold a month later. Actually worse than the Orvis Floating by a long shot. Then went to Rio-Trout, Gold, Windcutter. I wasn't happy with the way any floated. You shouldn't have to dress, Zap-A-Gap or do anything to a floating line except clean it. I did have an SA GPX which was a 3 wt. line (DT if I remember). Sharkskin came along and all the hype and $99 price tag. After being available for a year, I asked a friend that does a lot of fishing (U.S. FF'ing team since the beginning among other things) about SS since I knew he used it even before it hit the market. He told me he usually goes through a line every 6 months. The SS he had (5wt.) was still a prototype and 3 years old. What sold me was he said it performs just as good at 3 years old as when he originally got it.
I think my original 5wt. is going on 5 years now. Still floats like no other line I've had, shoots much further than any other line and has no cracks, no need to grease or plug the tip. I have it in 3,4,5,6 wt. I still have the other lines, but don't use them a lot ( windcutter 6 wt., Rio Gold 5 wt.,and Trout LT in 4).
I haven't tried GPX Textured yet, but it's supposed to be the same as SS.
These are my findings from actual use, and I've never had my fingers cut up from SS, the sound doesn't bother me and lasting as long as they have so far, they're more cost effective.

 

[overmywaders]

Jackster,

True, there are many other costs associated with the line; for brevity's sake I cut it short. However, to illustrate the cost to manufacture fly lines, Cortland is able to sell their "Fairplay" fly lines to Walmart for such a low price that Walmart can then profitably market the lines for $12.96. Assuming an average Walmart retail markup for this type of goods of 33%, Cortland would be profitably selling the lines for $8.64. Assuming Cortland also makes 33% over cost-to-manufacture, the cost-to-manufacture would be $5.76. ("Fairplay" lines are three feet shorter than the "Cortland 333+", but the same basic materials and manufacturing methods go into both.)

But, as I said earlier,

IMO, whatever line feels best on the rod with the way you cast to the average distance you need... is the line you should buy, regardless of price.

 

[imxer]

Thanks Guys

Appreciate the various replies about cost of lines. Am in agreement with most, if not all.
This truly is an excellent FORUM.

Imxer

 

[burk48237]

There are a few components in the costs of manufacturing fly lines that I believe many here aren't considering.

1) A ton of testing, no matter how well it works on the computer, Fly lines require a lot of testing in a lot of conditions. This in-tales making hundreds of lines that no margin is recouped on.

2) Promotional costs, you can't sell fly lines unless you get free lines in the hands of industry personal, fly shop owners, guides, and shop buyers have to try them too. This is the only way you can generate any industry "buzz". Advertising itself is expensive, a few adds in the Drake can eat into a margin real quick.

3) Packaging, At Cortland we use a package that can be used as a line winder, it's made from recycled materials and is biodegradable. This isn't cheap, in some cases it costs more than the raw materials (not labor) of the line production itself.

4) Production: Loops have to be done by hand, in most cases the cutting the lines and spooling is manual labor.

The raw material itself is pretty cheap, but everything else isn't.

 

[Liphookedau]

Another interesting Thread,I've also used most of the Lines,with the exception of three mentioned,plus others not mentioned.
With Reels & especially one Brand of Gear which is Good Stuff,as mentioned some is way overpriced,after all why should The average guy who uses these products have to pay for all The Promotion Freebies etc,because if we The Buyers don't like a product it doesn't sell regardless of whose tested it,also huge mark ups greatly increase all item prices.
Like many others I have Many Many loaded Reels with Lines of all sizes etc, plus many new unused Lines,some of which I have bought at the right price,even though I will never wear them all out.
I constantly check eBay & constantly see Lines from $15 to $100+,however I haven't bought a Line for 6-9 Months & by my Standards,am I overdue???
Perhaps??? as I always Shop around for The Best Buy.

Brian.