AFTM weights and fly line manufacturers

[robinfick]

I am in the market for a 9# line for a Sage VXP which I want to use for poppers and wind resistant flies. When looking at the tapers of the fly lines I would choose for coldwater saltwater use, I find the following weights of the fly lines that I am looking at;
Scientific Anglers Coldwater Redfish WF9F - 260 grains
Rio Coldwater Outbound short WF9F - 375 grains
Rio Coldwater Outbound Long WF9F = 375 grains

The recommended weight for a 9# line is 240 grains so will my number 9 rod cope with these, in the case of the Rio lines, 50% heavy than the AFTM recommended weights or do I downsize in fly lines for my rod?

Your experiences and comments would be most appreciative as I am not in a position to test lines on the rod = I buy via mail order living 450kms from the nearest fly shop.

 

[shopworn]

Yes...no...maybe...

I don't have any experience with that rod...if it is stiff and fast and you don't try to routinely aerialize long lengths (40+ feet) of line, the Outbound should be fine. Probably better if you are making shorter casts (less than 30 feet) most often.

I have put a 6 wt line on a .5 wt rod and it does surprisingly well. Sooo...I think your 9 will handle any of the lines okay.

As a general guideline...for every 5 feet of line you carry in the air past 30 feet...that is equivalent to going up a line weight. e.g. 40 feet of 9 wt line that falls within the AFTMA guidelines is equivalent to casting an 11 wt line.

You may be more comfortable staying with a standard wt. line but just getting one with the shortest front taper you can find.

However, that is the standard guidance. I personaly really like the Wulff Triangle Taper lines and think they do quite well with bigger poppers etc.

 

[ia_trouter]

I think I would call Sage if an actual owner of the rod doesn't chime it. I throw 4-6" deer hair musky/pike flies with my 9WT Legend Ultra with a 300GR line. 300 will carry a pretty large fly. 375 will likely slow your 9WT rod way down. As you said, 50% over std.

 

[duker]

I wonder what length of head Rio is measuring to get those 375 grain weights. I believe the AFTMA weights are for the first 30 ft of the head; I have a feeling that Rio's weights are for the entire head.

This was mentioned in another thread not so long ago--another poster had a bone to pick about the Rio head weights.

Scott

 

[Hirdy]

I wonder what length of head Rio is measuring to get those 375 grain weights. I believe the AFTMA weights are for the first 30 ft of the head; I have a feeling that Rio's weights are for the entire head.

This was mentioned in another thread not so long ago--another poster had a bone to pick about the Rio head weights.

Scott

Rio OBS has a head length of 30' and they give the details for the weight of the whole head there. They are measuring 30'.

Why is it so much more than the AFTM standard? Because it's an integrated shooting-head line: all the casting mass is in that 30' head. (Look up how to "calculate the weight of a shooting head" and you'll find the recommended line is the first 30' of a line 2 classes higher than your rod's line weight rating.

Cheers,
Graeme

 

[moucheur2003]

I believe the AFTMA weights are for the first 30 ft of the head; I have a feeling that Rio's weights are for the entire head.

That's my guess too. I would assume the first 30 feet of the Rio lines earn them a standard 9 rating, but Rio also tells you the weight for the entire length of the head since a lot of casters will double-haul with the entire head in the air and shoot only the thin rear shooting line section. It's good info to know because diifferent rods handle differently when overloaded.

Best way to find out is simply to call Rio customer service.

 

[ia_trouter]

In the event you do decide to go with the Rio Outbound 375 line, hardyreels (Ard) had one with integrated running line for sale on the forum. No idea if he ever sold it.

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/f...tbound-375-grain-line-suitable-11-switch.html

 

[robinfick]

Thanks for the feedback. Please realise that I live in South Africa and do not have Rio customer service on my doorstep. I rely on the internet and forums such as this to learn from the experiences of members on this forum for which I am eternally grateful. According to the Rio website, the weight is for the head, be it 30 feet for the short or 37 1/2 feet for the long, the weight is the same.
So now my question is - is anyone using these lines - say a WF7F and fishing it on a rod rated for a 7# line and find that the rod can handle it or feel they should have used a 6#?

Robin

 

[ia_trouter]

I would find a way to call or email Sage but you might find a few posts in this thread useful.

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/fly-rods/329340-any-sage-vxp-users-here.html

 

[dean_mt]

That seems like a really heavy line. According to the AFTMA standard, 9 wt line is 230-250 grains. 375 is a 12wt line. I don't know why you'd want to over-line by three line weights on a single hand rod.

Those aggressive tapers are what will make for a good casting line for turning over heavy flies, not just the weight of the line.

 

[wolfglen]

That seems like a really heavy line. According to the AFTMA standard, 9 wt line is 230-250 grains. 375 is a 12wt line. I don't know why you'd want to over-line by three line weights on a single hand rod.

Those aggressive tapers are what will make for a good casting line for turning over heavy flies, not just the weight of the line.

Exactly right, putting on a heavier line does not help much unless you are trying to sink buoyant flies. Think about it, which falls faster, a 12 lead ball or a split shot? The same.

If you want to get down deeper, there are two ways use a denser line, that is a faster sink rate or add more weight to the fly. It's density, not weight which gets you down.

 

[Hirdy]

So now my question is - is anyone using these lines - say a WF7F and fishing it on a rod rated for a 7# line and find that the rod can handle it or feel they should have used a 6#?

Robin

Robin,

A 9wt Outbound (long or short) is built for a 9wt rod. They work fine. It will not "overline" your rod. That's the short answer for you. As to why? Keep reading ...

It only seems to be heavy because all the casting mass is condensed into that length of line, be it 30' or 37'.

The AFTM(A) standard was introduced when most lines were DT lines. It's just a value to attribute to the line based on the 1st 30' so we could decide which line to buy for our rod.

Obviously, we aren't restricted to casting only 30' of line under that standard. To cast further, one would choose to carry (say) 60' of line. If using a DT line, that 60' of line weighs more than twice as much as the first 30' alone*, but the rod still handles it just fine.

If you were using a standard DT9 with a 30' length weight of 240gn, the 60' of line you'd carry to cast for distance would weigh more than 480gn - and the rod would be just fine with that!

Integrated shooting head lines like the Outbound series simply push all of that casting mass into the head of the line and use a thin running line to aid shooting for distance.

375gn on a 9wt is not a problem.

Cheers,
Graeme

(* There's a taper in the first 30' that isn't present in the next 30', hence 60' weighs more than twice as much.)

---------- Post added at 08:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 AM ----------

Exactly right, putting on a heavier line does not help much unless you are trying to sink buoyant flies. Think about it, which falls faster, a 12 lead ball or a split shot? The same.

If you want to get down deeper, there are two ways use a denser line, that is a faster sink rate or add more weight to the fly. It's density, not weight which gets you down.

I really don't understand what you are talking about here Jack. Nobody said anything about sinking a fly. The heavier line referred to is about casting a line that may be too heavy for the rod (or in this case, isn't ...)

A 12wt floating line won't sink any flies, but it's still too heavy for a 6wt rod.

Once again, a 375gn head is not too heavy for a 9wt rod. It's about right if you're using a shooting head (integrated or not.)

Cheers,
Graeme

 

[ia_trouter]

Robin,

A 9wt Outbound (long or short) is built for a 9wt rod. They work fine. It will not "overline" your rod. That's the short answer for you. As to why? Keep reading ...

I am trying to follow this but not sure I do. Are you saying if I buy any other standard 9WT WF line it should actually weigh about 375 total? My only other 9WT experience is my Legend Ultra. I have an SA Wet tip express 300GR line. It is all the rod wants and then some. I'll try to do some more research on my line for clarity of discussion.

EDIT: My line is 300G for first 30FT WT. It is advertised as an 8/9 WT streamer line.

 

[Hirdy]

Unfortunately, there is almost no such beast as a "standard line". Head lengths, tapers and linear masses are all over the shop. It's the result of every line company producing "specialised lines" in an effort to get us to buy a new line for every possible situation we fish in.

Do you know how long the head is on that SA Wet tip express 300GR line? It's probably 30', which means for your style of casting, you're happy to load that rod with only about 300gn.

I mainly fish with rods sold as 10wt rods. I load them with integrated sinking shooting heads around 400gn, but if I'm using my preferred style of line (i.e. very long heads to carry lots of line) those total head weights are around 480 (eg Rio Permit).

Rods are not so restricted in what they can handle. Don't get too hung up on AFTM weights and rod ratings. Become a good caster and it won't matter.

Cheers,
Graeme

 

[ia_trouter]

Rods are not so restricted in what they can handle. Don't get too hung up on AFTM weights and rod ratings. Become a good caster and it won't matter.

Thanks Graeme, I understand that I can adjust and cast anything remotely close to correct weight. I am trying to attain a better understanding of lines so I have a better chance of making intelligent purchases in the absence testing at a fly shop. Purchasing $80 lines I don't enjoy will not enhance my fly fishing experience. I eventually need a floating line for my 9WT, and would like to purchase one that does not load my rod significantly deeper than my current SA line, and still carry very large flies moderate distances 40-50ft (hopefully without 2 years of casting practice). It sounds like the Rio 375 might possibly be that line. Getting my current line on a scale might help somewhat with that decision.

 

[fredaevans]

I can't speak to one hander lines but when it comes to 'two handers' RIO is sharp as a tack on the phone. Simon G is a total hoot; 'What rods do you have?' Actually stacks of 2handers; hour on the phone.

"Are you Fred Evans?"

 

[robinfick]

Thanks guys and especially Graeme for the feedback. I have ordered the Outbound short so we will see when it arrives. I have also sent emails to Rio and Sage for their feedback. It now makes more sense when one compares it to the old DT lines and the weight of the first 30 feet.
Robin

 

[robinfick]

Chris from Rio Fly Lines replied to my email and advised that I would have no problem using the designated line for the designated rod and to treat the lines as shooting head type lines which I intend doing. Once I receive the line and tried it, I will advise accordingly.
Robin

 

[wjc]

I can't speak to one hander lines but when it comes to 'two handers' RIO is sharp as a tack on the phone.

Exactly, Fred. All you have to do is seach the string "Sage One 13' 6" line grain range" and you will find a grain range for that rod in Scandi and Skagit style lines on numerous websites including "Sageflyfish".

Not only that but the terms T-11 and T-14 refer to the number of grains weight per foot of line. When Spey line manufacturers talk about "head weight" they are talking about the weight of the entire line minus the weight of the running line - just like nealy all line manufacturers are.

That is not the case with Rio's single handed lines which can have, at their discretion, three parts, the "head", the "running" line and the "back taper" as if the back taper has zero weight and is not a factor in casting. It should logically be called the "front taper" of the running line since that is what they are treating it as.

As for the running line, I don't subscribe to the " each 5 feet of line outside the tip equals one more line weight" theory. Airflow Ridge 30# running line weighs 4 grains/foot so 5 feet weighs only 20 grains. So a 12 wt line by that measure (and the antiquated 30' AFTMA rule) would weigh only 120 grains, not whateveer their formula says.

Like the Antiquated system the 5 feet rule would be correct with 4 weight level lines and DT lines. But 4 wt WF lines do not have 30# running lines, so it doesn't even apply to them in weight forwards.

I eventually need a floating line for my 9WT, and would like to purchase one that does not load my rod significantly deeper than my current SA line......Getting my current line on a scale might help somewhat with that decision.

Indeed it will. But you will need to get the entire head weight (which includes the back taper) from the manufacturer.

 

[ia_trouter]

Chris from Rio Fly Lines replied to my email and advised that I would have no problem using the designated line for the designated rod and to treat the lines as shooting head type lines which I intend doing. Once I receive the line and tried it, I will advise accordingly.
Robin

While you are waiting you might visit stripersonline.com There is a very extensive thread on Rio OB vs OBS on 8-11WT rods. It's long but there is discussion of tips and leader, casting techniques etc. from some guys who seem to have a lot of experience with it in your intended use. It's a bit like this thread as not everyone is cool with the Rio ratings, and over lining rods in some cases. But it has specific info I think you might find useful.

---------- Post added at 08:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 AM ----------

Indeed it will. But you will need to get the entire head weight (which includes the back taper) from the manufacturer

Hopefully I can get that info and I think I am getting a flyline headache I need to pack up and go see Ard. This can wait.