mono vs fluoro

[ratherfish]

I am certain this has been asked several times already - why would one pick mono or fluoro line?

 

[ratherfish]

One reason I ask is I just switched out one of my rods from 6X something to 3X mono and the leader is floating. It just looks funny as I strip and twitch the hopper back home - it makes a line in the water in front of my hopper.

 

[osseous]

You just answered your own question~

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[ratherfish]

Mono floats and Fluoro sinks?

 

[karstopo]

Pretty much. I think real light fluorocarbon can be made to float on the surface tension. Nylon mono might very slowly sink if allowed to with a specific gravity of around 1.14. Fluorocarbon has a specific gravity closer to 2 so it is going to sink quite a bit faster than nylon monofilament.

 

[osseous]

Mono floats and Fluoro sinks?

Yes- in addition, flouro has a harder surface, so it is more abrasion resistant. It has a refractive index very close to that of water- so it is thought to be less visible to fish. On the downside, it is generally less supple than nylon (both materials are technically "monofilament" lines- so the accepted terms now are nylon and flouro) so it may give somewhat less drag free of a drift on the surface for dry fly fishing if you grease it. In light tippet sizes it will float when greased with dry fly floatant. Many folks carry one or the other- and some of us carry both. Flouro will cut nylon if you don't use proper knots when joining the two materials. Often than means adding a turn: double surgeon's knot fails, triple surgeons knot holds, for instance.

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[karstopo]

I like fluorocarbon, but I’m not fishing thin tippets very often. Nylon has better knot strength and handles being stretched to near the breaking point repeatedly better than fluorocarbon.

Nothing in a normal situation breaks down fluorocarbon. UV light, mosquito spray, heat or excessive exposure to moisture won’t really weaken fluorocarbon. I’ve had a spool of 20# hard nylon monofilament leader material go bad to where easy pressure with the fingers snapped it. Not sure what agent broke down the nylon, but no way should 20# material break like that. Some of my fluorocarbon leaders have been out in the high Ultraviolet light Texas sunlight for hundreds of hours. Nylon is susceptible to damage from that type of UV light exposure.

But I know people roll with nylon and catch the exact fish I get with fluorocarbon. I like the extra sinking action of fluorocarbon, but others prefer the more neutrally buoyant nylon. I don’t see it as a make or break type of deal very often. I might go nylon if I am using thin tippets where the breaking strengths are very light since nylon has better knot strength. Fluorocarbon has a nearly identical refraction index to water and nylon doesn’t, but the fish can’t really communicate if that’s an issue for them.

I like some of the lower end fluorocarbon brands that are about the same price as better nylon material. The lower end fluorocarbon has a larger diameter per break strength as compared to the premium brands like Seaguar. I believe the bigger diameter material hangs in there longer with some minor surface abrasions than thinner material.

I guess it’s part confidence, too. When I fished conventional tackle a lot, I felt like I had solid evidence fluorocarbon leaders out-fished nylon ones so I carried over that idea to the fly fishing leaders I made.

 

[dennyk]

In speaking of connecting fluoro to mono this is what works for me.

Bass rod-15# leader to a 12# Fluoro tippet the double surgeon's knot works fine. The leader is Maxima Chameleon mono to Seaguar 12# tippet.

Streamer rod- I use a small swivel as the connector because of the diameter of a lighter mono leader to the fluoro tippet. Too many cut through knots because of the lighter pound test mono.

Nymphing rod- I use small tippet rings as the connector.

Hope it helps!

Denny

 

[osseous]

In speaking of connecting fluoro to mono this is what works for me.

Bass rod-15# leader to a 12# Fluoro tippet the double surgeon's knot works fine. The leader is Maxima Chameleon mono to Seaguar 12# tippet.

Streamer rod- I use a small swivel as the connector because of the diameter of a lighter mono leader to the fluoro tippet. Too many cut through knots because of the lighter pound test mono.

Nymphing rod- I use small tippet rings as the connector.

Hope it helps!

Denny

I'd be curious to learn- on your bass combo, if you pulled to failure is the 12 lb flouro cutting that Maxima, or is the weaker flouro breaking?

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[silver creek]

I am certain this has been asked several times already - why would one pick mono or fluoro line?

Fly Fish America did a study of Nylon vs Fluorocarbon. It is the ONLY article I've read where the two materials were actually tested side by side.

There was a tippet shootout in 2012 where the competing brands of nylon and fluorocarbon tippet materials were tested against each other:

Tippet Shootout

The Fly Fish America article used to be available online but no longer is. Here is what the article said about specific gravity and whether the density of mono vs flourocarbon has any effect on whether one sinks or floats. Other factors such as refractive index, wet knot strength, water water absorption, environmental degredation were also discussed.

Here are the pertinent parts of the article. The bolded emphasis is mine

"Refractive Index

The refractive index of a material is a measure of how much the speed of light is reduced as it passes through the material. Water has a refractive index of 1.33, meaning that in water light travels about 75% of the speed it does in a vacuum. The average refractive index of nylon monofilaments is about 1.58, meaning that when passing through nylon light travels at about 63% of the speed it does in a vacuum. Fluorocarbon has a refractive index of 1.42, meaning that when passing through fluorocarbon light travels at about 70% of the speed it does in a vacuum. Since the refractive index of fluorocarbon is closer to that of water than is the refractive index of nylon, fluorocarbon is theoretically the less visible material when immersed in water. That’s the science, and we hope it does more for you than it does for us.

We’ve tried for years to come up with a practical test of the comparative visibility of fluorocarbon and nylon monofilaments in water, without any demonstrable success. We’ve immersed fluorocarbon and nylon tippet materials of similar diameters side by side in water—in water glasses, sinks, aquariums and saltwater shallows—in depths from a couple of inches to over a foot. We’ve even tried photographing them under water, but we’ll be damned if we can see a difference. Both materials appear equally visible against a wide range of backgrounds.

That being said, the only view that counts is the fish-eye view, and in many years of using both nylon and fluorocarbon leaders and tippets in every conceivable fishing situation it is our subjective impression that fluorocarbon produces more hook ups than nylon. That conclusion is based on nothing but observation (albeit, thousands of them) any is completely lacking in any empirical data. Nonetheless, fluorocarbon appears to be less visible to fish, and for that reason alone it’s worth using, at least under certain conditions—like on the flats—where any degree of added stealth is a clear benefit.

Specific Gravity

It’s been said that the most common reason why even half-smart trout reject a dry-fly offering is because they see the squiggly outline of the leader on the water’s surface. Makes sense to us. Why else would every fly shop be selling those little squeeze bottles of “leader sink” that work for a while before they wash off? It sure would be nice if leaders and tippets sank all by themselves.

The density of a material, compared to that of water, is expressed as its specific gravity. To keep things simple, whoever developed the specific gravity scale—some Englishman, no doubt—assigned water a specific gravity of 1.00. Materials with a specific gravity of less than 1.00 are lighter than water, and will float. Materials having a specific gravity in excess of 1.00 are heavier than water, and will sink . . . *theoretically, at least.

The actual blend of polymers used to produce “nylon” varies somewhat, but the nylon formulations used to make monofilament leaders and tippets generally have a specific gravity in the range of 1.05 to 1.10, making them just slightly heavier than water. To put those numbers in perspective, tungsten—used in high-density sink tips—has a specific gravity of 19.25.

Being slightly heavier than water does not mean that nylon monofilament is going to sink, at least not quickly or very well. Surface tension—where the water’s surface behaves like an elastic film—must be broken before an object will sink. A object’s density and contact angle with the water’s surface are the two most significant variables in its ability to break surface tension and sink, and the “just slightly heavier than water” specific gravity and zero contact angle (i.e., laid out flat) of a nylon monofilament leader or tippet are not sufficient to do it most of the time. If pushed or pulled under the surface by a weighted fly or roiling current, nylon monofilament will sink . . . but very, very slowly.

Fluorocarbon has a specific gravity in the range of 1.75 to 1.90. Tungsten it ain’t, but it is significantly more dense than nylon. But is it sufficiently dense to quickly and reliable break surface tension and sink all by itself, even at zero contact angles, and even in the smallest diameters? No, it’s not. Our testing reveals that most brands of fluorocarbon tippet material in 0X to 8X diameters are no better than nylon at breaking surface tension and sinking on their own. Larger diameter fluorocarbon materials do demonstrate a slightly better ability to break surface tension without the assistance of current or other external influences, but for practical fishing purposes fluorocarbon has little benefit over nylon on this measure.

Wet Knot Strength

The only knots that really matter for anglers are the wet ones, and nylon monofilament has a slight edge over fluorocarbon on this measure. Tests with a surgeons knot, lubricated before cinching, and then immersed in freshwater for 20 minutes, demonstrate that nylon monofilament breaks at the knot at an average of about 80% of its rated break strength. Fluorocarbon isn’t far behind at an average of about 75% of rated break strength. These numbers will vary somewhat by diameter and brand of material.*
While the difference between nylon and fluorocarbon wet-knot break strength may be statistically significant, the “real world” difference is minimal at best. In fact, for most anglers the wet break strength of their knots is more a function of the quality of the knot than the material with which it is tied. Because fluorocarbon is harder than nylon, it is especially important to ensure that fluorocarbon knots are tightly cinched and fully seated.

Water Absorption

Nylon monofilament is a lot like spaghetti—it absorbs water in copious quantities. Trying to pull a piece of dry spaghetti apart end to end is tough, but as soon as it gets cooked (i.e., it has absorbed a bunch of water) it pulls apart with ease. That’s an extreme example, but you get the picture.

In reality, nylon monofilament will absorb up to about 10% of its weight in water. Water absorption is a mixed blessing. On the upside, nylon monofilament that has absorbed water becomes more limp and supple, and makes knot tying easier. On the downside, water-logged nylon monofilament swells, increasing its diameter, reducing its break strength by about 20% (i.e., 10-pound test becomes 8-pound), and increasing its elongation (stretch) by 25% to 30%.

Fluorocarbon monofilament, however, is basically impervious to water. Depending upon the formulation, it absorbs less than 0.05% of its weight in water, with the result that none of its physical properties change after a prolonged soaking. The diameter, break strength and elongation of wet fluorocarbon monofilament remain essentially the same as dry fluorocarbon—but so does its stiffness, resulting in no appreciable reduction in line-coil memory after prolonged use. If you can live with more pronounced memory, fluorocarbon gets the nod here.

The Bottom Line

Both materials are environmental time bombs, and the fact that nylon biodegrades 3,400 years sooner than fluorocarbon does little to forgive its 600-year environmental “shelf life.”

As I tell my wife on a nearly weekly basis, “Any dumb #?*@&% can spend money,” and considering that nylon monofilament leaders and tippets are priced at roughly half the cost of their fluorocarbon counterparts, nylon is the clear value leader.

Less clear are the relative performance advantages of the two materials. Nylon gets the nod on wet knot strength, but not by much, and demonstrates no clear advantages over fluorocarbon on any other measure. Neither of them sink very well on their own, and both materials stretch to about the same extent (although in different ways). Nylon has a higher dry break strength, but after a thorough soaking it cedes that advantage to fluorocarbon. Even though we “feel” that our hook-up rates are higher with fluorocarbon, both materials appear equally visible under water. So what’s left?

The three “biggies” for us are water absorption, UV degradation and abrasion resistance, and fluorocarbon holds the high ground on all three measures by a wide margin. Water absorption results in nothing but negative consequences, and fluorocarbon’s zero water absorption avoids them all. Ditto with UV degradation. But our biggest “biggie” is fluorocarbon’s greatly increased resistance to abrasion.

So which material do we use for our leaders and tippets? We use both. For any “mission critical” application where fish absolutely have to be landed for photography, we use fluorocarbon leaders and tippets exclusively—the cost be damned. To do anything else would be a “penny wise and pound foolish” proposition. For general dubbing around on our local trout fisheries, we use nylon with greater frequency.

What it really comes down to is cost-benefit analysis. When you’ve just dropped five grand on a flats-fishing trip to the Yucatan, screw the cost and bring plenty of fluorocarbon. When you’re just out for an evening of throwing dry flies at stocked trout, save a buck or two and go with nylon. After all, any dumb #?*@&% can spend money.

As to whether flourocarbon leaders can sink on their own, I think FFA is correct.

The difference specific gravity between fluorocarbon and nylon leader is so small that there is very little difference in sink rate.

Once under water, fluorocarbon will sink a bit faster than nylon but that does not mean it can break through the surface tension. Tests have shown that fluorocarbon is not dense enough to sink on its own.

Seeing is believing.

We have seen the experiment that demonstrates that surface tension can float a sewing needle on water. But once you push the needle under to break the surface tension, the needle sinks. Notice the steel needle is dropped onto the water surface much like a fluorocarbon leader would fall onto the water surface. Note the disturbance it makes when in falls to the surface which I think is greater than a fluorocarbon leader would make as it lands on the surface. The disturbance indicates to me that the needle hits the water surface harder than a fluorocarbon leader; it is also heavier and does NOT sink.

Watch the entire video. Later in the video, the demonstrator moves the needle with a magnet so it moves on the water surface. The needle keeps floating.

I submit that if a dropped needle floats, so will a fluorocarbon leader which is much less dense.



YouTube



Surface tension will float also fluorocarbon. But once pulled underwater by the fly or split shot, it sinks. If you want to keep it floating longer, coat it with silicone floatant. In fact, you can use fluorocarbon with dry flies by treating the leader with floatant.

Here's the deal - silk fly lines are the density of intermediate sinking lines and early fly fishers used them for dry flies by treating them with floatant. In his book Fly Gear, Gary Borger discusses using modern plastic intermediate sinking lines to fish dry flies by treating them with floatant.

The truth is that fluorocarbon will not make dry flies sink NOR is it measurably better than nylon in getting nymphs to sink. Both statements are wrong. Surface tension is what floats both flies and leaders that are heavier than water and lead or tungsten is what makes nymphs sink. Over the average cast and drift, whether the tippet is nylon or fluorocarbon has no effect on making a dry fly float or making a nymph sink.

In the Trout Madness John Voelker video below, Voelker strings his silk line on a tree branch and treats it with floatant before fishing.

YouTube

 

[dennyk]

I'd be curious to learn- on your bass combo, if you pulled to failure is the 12 lb flouro cutting that Maxima, or is the weaker flouro breaking?

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Hi osseous, I have not as of yet pulled the knot to failure on my bass set up, the hook straightens out first when pulling it off a snag. That Maxima Chameleon 15# is pretty tough line. I've found it to be more critical as you use lighter pound lines knotted together. The result when those are pulled to failure is a little pig tail on my mono leader-the fluoro has cut through it.

Denny

 

[osseous]

When I was living in florida and fishing salt, this became a big deal- an obsession. Add braid to the equation and I became rigging obsessed. That's why now, when tying knots between dissimilar materials I always pay attention to the number of turns, etc. In many cases it doesn't really matter- what are the odds of catching a 12 lb bass, for instance- but then, when you're obsessed you tend to do things that aren't always rational!

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[ratherfish]

"Why else would every fly shop be selling those little squeeze bottles of “leader sink” that work for a while...."

I did not know this product was out there, still learning....

 

[osseous]

"Why else would every fly shop be selling those little squeeze bottles of “leader sink” that work for a while...."

I did not know this product was out there, still learning....

"Xink"- red top on the bottle, instead of yellow like Gink

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[Grizz900]

Thank you Mr. Denny, I've been away from using a fly rod close to 10 yrs and i'm getting back into it now that I'm living in WY. I never heard of a tippet ring but now I do. I like that set up. If you could help me again here.... for 2 ft rainbows and browns I was thinking of running perhaps 12" or more? 15 lb butt section, tied to the ring and my leader as well. But if my eyes aren't that great I think doing the double surgeon loop on both of them could work like it was mentioned.

 

[dennyk]

Thank you Mr. Denny, I've been away from using a fly rod close to 10 yrs and i'm getting back into it now that I'm living in WY. I never heard of a tippet ring but now I do. I like that set up. If you could help me again here.... for 2 ft rainbows and browns I was thinking of running perhaps 12" or more? 15 lb butt section, tied to the ring and my leader as well. But if my eyes aren't that great I think doing the double surgeon loop on both of them could work like it was mentioned.

Hi Grizz-what style are you going to be fishing? Nymphs, streamers?

This is an example of how I rig mine:

Dry flies-tapered leaders 4X and lighter, if I need to add a tippet it's 3 or 4 pound Maxima Ultragreen or Orvis SuperSoft Plus tied to the leader with a double Surgeon's knot. -All Mono

Streamers-3 feet of Maxima 12# Chameleon to a small swivel to 3 or 4 feet of 8# Seaguar Fluoro.

Nymphs/Indicator- 4 feet 10# Maxima Ultragreen to 3 feet of 8# Max Ultragreen connected to the 10# with a double Surgeon's knot to a tippet ring to 3-4 feet 4x and lighter fluoro.

These are all used for trout in rivers.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

Denny

 

[silver creek]

Double post

 

[silver creek]

Thank you Mr. Denny, I've been away from using a fly rod close to 10 yrs and i'm getting back into it now that I'm living in WY. I never heard of a tippet ring but now I do.

Hi Grizz.

Your post about tippet rings reminded me that they are an excellent way to attach two dissimilar materials like nylon and fluorocarbon.

I have found that, at least for me, fluorocarbon to nylon knots tend to fail. My working theory is that the harder fluorocarbon cuts through the softer nylon especially as the nylon absorbs water and swells up.

I use either a tippet ring OR a triple surgeon's knot because both a blood knot and double surgeon's have failed when I used them.

Attaching Fluoro to Mono | Knot Tips for Fluorocarbon Tippet

Another article recommends the double uni knot but the triple surgeon's is so much simpler to tie.

How To: Best Knot For Monofilament To Fluorocarbon Connections

YouTube

 

[osseous]

You can simply increase the number of turns and still get good results with a blood knot. If the diameter is very different, you'll need an improved blood.

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[Grizz900]

yes that's fine. I will experience it but I like the maxima 10lb to the ring and floro. Or double surgeon with straight mono. I've never fish indicators. I wish I could hire a guide. Sitting in the boat and having a guide teach me about trout is what I really need. If I can sell all my avian x duck and goose decoys, i'll have some xtra money to learn a lot.