Made in China

[dennis7490]

Hello everyone,

I've just started researching new reels for the first time in a long time. I've looked at Orvis, Ross, Galvin, Lamson, etc.
But I have noticed a "But it's made in China" as that were the killer. So are Apple products, and Microsoft products, etc.
I own:
Lamson
Hardy (Old collection from friend)
Ross (Big one)
Ross Flystart 1
Pflueger (old metal one in pristine conditions, 4")
Orvis CFO, green.
ARgus - NOTE: this is a small reel for a 3-5 line. it has, by far, the best drag of all the above reels except the Ross & Lamson. Got it as a package for my son's 1rst rod 2 yrs. ago.

I don't know which ones were made in china. Surely the ARgus was. Hardy, no, Old Pflueger, no, CFO, no (says made in England)

But what is the beef with Chinese made products, i.e. quality. Not patriotism, please. Let's stick with quality. I'm pretty sure most of Orvis stuff is made there. Most of Orvis I like. So, where's the beef? Are they truly inferior or is it xenophobia?

Thanks,

Dennis

p.s. Let's keep it civil, please.

 

[BigCliff]

Besides trying to support American jobs or capitalism vs communism, its about quality.

The overall quality of products manufactured in China has come way up in recent years, but its still not up to the same level as the US, Japan, or Korea, generally speaking.

That said, I'd sooner have a fly reel made in China than one made in Burma or India.

 

[gaz19]

I have also looked at this and spoke to someone connected with Orvis, most of the parts are made in US and UK, BUT they are assembled in china, i dont know if this is 100% right, any thoughts

 

[BigCliff]

I have also looked at this and spoke to someone connected with Orvis, most of the parts are made in US and UK, BUT they are assembled in china, i dont know if this is 100% right, any thoughts

Parts made here, shipped over there for assembly, and back here to be sold?

In this day of JIT and high fuel prices, I'm amazed that business model still exists.

 

[brookfieldangler]

I generally agree with the sentiment of the OP.

The country it was built in is less important (at least to me) than the company that engineers, controls, and dictates to the manufacturer the expectation. If Orvis has stuff built in China, it doesn't automatically make it an inferior product. Orvis still dictates the materials to be used, the quality expectations, and the processes in which it is built, inspected, packaged, etc....

Where I do have a problem with China is the Chinese based companies copying other companies designs and selling the product as a cheaper alternative. My company build's tradeshow exhibits and I am frequently traveling to many different trade events. One show I went to was an HVAC show in Orlando. One of my customers makes A/C units and one morning, before the show opened, I was walking towards the booth to do a pre-show inspection. As I am walking down this aisle, I see some people on the floor in front of the booth. As I get closer, I realize that these people have taken one of the units off of its display podium and are completely disassembling it and photographing it's components. It turns out that this was a Chinese company. I also learned since then, that this happens more often than I imagined and the culprits are typically Chinese based companies.

Once this happens, the Chinese companies don't demand the same level of quality that other companies demand. Metals may be an inferior grade, clearances may be less stringent, etc....all of those things lead to an inferior product, but again, it's the company dictating the quality that controls this.

 

[moucheur2003]

I have also looked at this and spoke to someone connected with Orvis, most of the parts are made in US and UK, BUT they are assembled in china, i dont know if this is 100% right, any thoughts

Although some people sneer at all "Asian" products, there's a big difference between more mature manufacturing countries like Japan and Korea and still-developing ones like China and Thailand. Given China's reputation for inconsistent quality, it wouldn't surprise me that established brands with a reputation to protect (like Orvis) would need to import a lot of components into China if they are doing final assembly there. There are a lot of low-quality brand "x" knockoffs made in China, but the big brands do have good reason to try to maintain quality control.

The Hardy guy at a recent trade show told me that although they now do most of their manufacturing and assembly in Korea, there are some parts that they ship from their factory in the UK. For example, they can get higher-quality aluminum in Korea, with fewer defects, so they mill the barstock frames in Korea, but they can get harder, higher-quality stainless steel in the UK, so they make the drag pawls in the UK. He said the Korean cost advantage over the UK has less to do with lower labor costs than with the lower wastage rate made possible by the availability of superior raw materials.

Look at what has happened in cars and electronics. It wasn't so long ago that "made in Japan" meant low quality, but now it means durability and precision engineering. Even more recently, Korea has followed the same pattern. Maybe one day China will too, but that day is not here yet.

 

[wt bash]

Every Orvis reel I've owned was either English or Korean made. China made poisonous tooth paste and kids' candy/toys that contained toxic chemicals, dog food and flea repellant that killed peoples' pets on top of other **** that's imported here. So for me, when it comes to my fly fishing gear "a poor man cannot afford to buy cheap gear".

 

[littledavid123]

I have no desire to do business with a country whose government supports every despot regime around the world and treats their citizens so terribly. I wish all Americans would give thought to what their dollars are supporting when they buy Chinese.

No apologies here, and I will not be led down the road of isolating my morals from the opportunity to save a dollar.

Dave

 

[fredaevans]

One that I can think of (Reels) are hand made at an affordable price here in the US:

SpeyCo Reels out of Greenbay. Kids, you could 'pound nails' with these things, they are that well made. :thumbsup: Annual 'maintenance?' A bit of paper towel to wipe the inside out and a drop or two of good oil/grease.

Everyone of these is 'hand made' and they're quality, at a very affordable price.

Period.

Fred Evans

 

[siskiyoublues]

One that I can think of (Reels) are hand made at an affordable price here in the US:

SpeyCo Reels out of Greenbay. Kids, you could 'pound nails' with these things, they are that well made. :thumbsup: Annual 'maintenance?' A bit of paper towel to wipe the inside out and a drop or two of good oil/grease.

Everyone of these is 'hand made' and they're quality, at a very affordable price.

Period.

Fred Evans

Oh man those have been on my radar for a while. It will happen the second I can afford to treat myself.
One of those belongs on my double hander and I can't imagine ever wanting another reel.
Glad to see them get mentioned. :thumbsup:

 

[pa dave]

I can't really separate the politics from the products. China could make the best reel on the planet and I would still buy somewhere else if there's an option.

I had the pleasure of meeting a woman who had the manufacturing of her jewelry done in China and her experience was that you could set standards all you want and they will meet them...for awhile. Without constant vigilance, corners started being cut. She finally gave up on fighting to maintain quality and moved her production elsewhere.

Our company briefly played at having printing done in China. The quality was fantastic, but our environmental standards (we exceed what is required at our US facilities) were not an option in China. They really don't give a rat's posterior what they pump into the air and water. In the end, the cost savings weren't what they thought and we abandoned the project.

 

[pegboy1]

Herein lies another problem to ponder regarding Asian vs American. I have noticed American companies as well on the scramble to reduce pricing to compete with the Asian lower cost lines. It has become painfuly obvious that some of the materials and components of american lower priced rods have suffered emensly. I won't give any names, but there a more than a few companies whose lower priced lines have got some of the crappiest reel seats I have ever seen. paper thin poorly coated aluminum, and simply horrible insert woods. lower modulus materials to cut costs as well. So on an apples to apples comparison on price alone, some of the American copetitive lines have become nowhere even close to what some of the Asian made brands are offereing now. Its a very tough spot for American companies to be in. This will no doubt sort itself out in the next few years.

Should high end American companies even attempt to gain the lower priced market? I wonder if redington outsells sage and by how much in recent times?
TFO? Whats the market share? It makes you wonder if American companies can do anything about the changing tides.

 

[FrankB2]

I had the pleasure of meeting a woman who had the manufacturing of her jewelry done in China and her experience was that you could set standards all you want and they will meet them...for awhile. Without constant vigilance, corners started being cut. She finally gave up on fighting to maintain quality and moved her production elsewhere.

I play guitar (classical), and have seen companies move their production to China. Yamaha has an excellent facilty, and it would rival any production guitar factory in the world. Other guitar companies are just looking for cheap labor and materials, and those guitars are mostly inferior. Kenny Hill owns a guitar workshop in California, and employs 15-25 people depending on demand. The U.S. made Hill guitars sell for $4,000-$8,000, and are widely regarded as fine imstruments. About 12 years ago, Kenny found a shop in Mexico to build cheaper versions of his instruments. Some were good, and some were bad. Inconsistent finish was the worst problem, mostly due to a lack of humidity control, and application flaws. Hill found a violin shop in China, and they agreed to make guitars for him. He flies over to China throughout the year, to make sure that standards are being met. Those guitars sell for $1,000-$1,800. The problem is, they also have flaws, and Hill sells the flawed guitars for a lower price. Once again, a lack of humidity control leaves too much moisture in the woods used, and cracks develop very quickly once they arrive in the U.S.

I can't separate politics from product either, and don't buy anything from China that is available allies of the U.S. (that includes the SLV reels I own that were made in Taiwan). China's new wealth has led them to pursue a larger military. Who in the world would they need to use that military against? US!!! I would rather not finance their military ambitions any more than I would finance terrorists (not saying the Chinese are terrorists). I'd rather keep the U.S. military the world's finest and most effective fighting force, and the Chinese can make those little cocktail umbrellas for all I care. We're forced to buy cell phones, Ipods, etc from China, but I don't own much in the way of electronics for that very reason.

When we talk about Korth Korea, the fact that the Korean war never really ended is always brought up. What's not heard very often is that we fought and killed more Chinese in that war, than N. Koreans. I have to wonder whether the Chinese would join the N. Koreans if the truce is broken. With a larger, more effective military, they would certainly have greater leverage in the matter (best case scenario). The Chinese were successful in holding the line during the war, but were unable to win because we were better equipped. Chinese industry has grown because we buy their products. They now have the cash and skilled workers to arm themselves much better than before. Do you want to fund them further? Not Me! I would like to see cordial relations we all reasonable nations, but China has made it clear they want to control that region of the world. That's a big piece of the pie, and I'd hate to see us pushed out.

 

[dennis7490]

I'm the one who started this thread, and I'm glad i did. It's been very educational. Ironically i am now looking at the Speyco reels mentioned above. Works of art, really and for very reasonable money and made in the U.S. So it can be done!

 

[grassonfly]

I buy a whole bunch of TFO purely because its a great product for cheap. Sure their reel seats suck but hey they cast nice. Im not worried about china attacking. We are their main money source. why would they destroy what fills their wallets?

 

[FrankB2]

It's not an issue of China attacking the United States. It's a matter of China wanting the U.S. military out of the South China Sea region, and that is at odds with current Pentagon policy: Top Chinese general takes aim at U.S. military policy - CNN There's quite a bit going on in this region, and many nations have laid claim to the same piece of the pie: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_Sea"]South China Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

I'm neither a Democrat, nor Republican. I am an American. My first interest in our nation, and not turning a profit in China. One has to wonder why the Chinese decided to become capitalists, and how long it will last. It could last for quite some time if it increases China's standing in world politics, and feeds over a billion people. Even as the Maoists die off, they will be replaced by people whose first interest is China (just as our interests should be focusing on keeping the U.S. a vital international power, with a healthy domestic economy). I can't find fault in the Chinese wanting to do well for themselves, but it might not always be in our best interest.

 

[argail]

by the way... I have american friend not сhinese & more like Made in USA
Today came across an article... in the middle of the post the idea of ​​"Made in China" - Bauer Fly Reels, made in Oregon: Factory tour and interview | The Caddis Fly: Oregon Fly Fishing Blog link on oregonflyfishingblog, post about Bauer Fly Reels

 

[pete a]

I was on the whole "anti-china" band wagon however you can't get around it at all. I quickly found myself a hippocrite.

Remember 'Drill Baby Drill" most of the steel for the pipe for oil/gas pipelines come from China. Most of the steel forgings for the meters, valves, pumps, well heads, blowout preventors...........are from China. This is far far more of your dollars (you pay at the pump and your utility bill) than the fly tackle we buy each year.

If you say you are against buying from China but your or your family shop at Best Buy, Home Depot, Loews, Target, Walmart, Walgreens..................................... then you might look a bit inward. Heck just look at the back of the computer system you type your response on, bet you a Hares Ear you find China somewhere in that system.

My point is why focus on the Fly Fishing industry (if it is large enough to call an "industry)? The shops and companies are tiny compared to rest of the world economy, IMHO let them alone. Sure if you can afford local go for it.

Pete A.

 

[Liphookedau]

Every Orvis reel I've owned was either English or Korean made. China made poisonous tooth paste and kids' candy/toys that contained toxic chemicals, dog food and flea repellant that killed peoples' pets on top of other **** that's imported here. So for me, when it comes to my fly fishing gear "a poor man cannot afford to buy cheap gear".

As well as all the Poisonous stuff above China knew that Baby Food being made in China also contained poison however they did nothing because they were afraid it would affect The Attendances to The Games.

I also bought one of The Latest Orvis Reels fron England,it says on The Box Made In China,I have 2 White River Reels Made in Korea,sold by Bass Pro & they are quite Good.

Also some time ago I bought a Reel on eBay from a site in Scotland,I recieved it in Australia for about $50 which at the time I thought was reasonable.
I Googled The Name on The Reel & was directed to a Marketing site where just for an exercise I bought The Same Reel for US $23,they are now $26, delivered to Australia from China.
The Reel has 2 Bearings & a One way Bearing,comes in 5 Colours,is Virtually The Same as many others being sold for up to a couple of Hundred Dollars plus,believe me The Reels are Quite Good as I gave them a good examining being A Mechanical Engineer with a background in Toolmaking & all aspects of Metrology,the only difference I found was The Difference of The Machining Patterns.
So The Bottom line is how much do they really produce them for,they are sold By A Retailler Via a Marketting Company & are Shipped to Australia?
All or most of our Industries have either moved offshore & things we once made now mainly comes from China.
Brian

 

[pete a]

Brian, just supplied very large orde for high integrity pipeline seals (made in US) to an offshore underwater pipeline project engineered in Houston, TX procured in Houston, TX and sold to BHP Billiton for North West Austrailia.

ALL of the pipe is coming in from China, much of the work will be perfomed by Australian and Mylasian (spelling) contractors. Much of the valves, controls are Chinese & Indian integrated by Austrailan & US engineers.

However much/most of the oil will be sold to China. Sounds like a trading partner not a competitor. A handful of chinese reels are far less $$ out of Aus than incoming oil $$ from China.

Pete A.